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Thread: 10yrs Ago Equineexcellence Called CRISIS - solutions ?

  1. #21
    Junior Member Foal Excursion will become famous soon enough
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    Kev, it would be pretty hard to find a more accurate summary of where things are currently at in harness racing than what you have just so eloquently put. Administrators seem to excel at window dressing, management speak and shuffling deck chairs but have no real idea how to attract the public back. Could what has happened in Queensland and South Australia be a preview of what is to come? The sport has become a victim of it's own success - there is more racing than ever with less horses than ever. Maybe this success will eventually consume the sport and consign it to a novelty act at agricultural shows?

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excursion View Post
    Kev, it would be pretty hard to find a more accurate summary of where things are currently at in harness racing than what you have just so eloquently put. Administrators seem to excel at window dressing, management speak and shuffling deck chairs but have no real idea how to attract the public back. Could what has happened in Queensland and South Australia be a preview of what is to come? The sport has become a victim of it's own success - there is more racing than ever with less horses than ever. Maybe this success will eventually consume the sport and consign it to a novelty act at agricultural shows?
    Interesting that you should say that David because Ray summarized the report he wrote this month as follows

    A once great vibrant harness racing industry now finds itself in terminal decline with the hopes and dreams of many younger participants never to
    materialise

    All because of incompetent management which still prevails today, the greed of those that cheat to gain advantage and some of the larger studs who gained benefit from unlimited books to the demise of the smaller studs

    Australian harness racing executives followed a flawed North American model which has seen a massive decline in public interest followed by a corresponding decline in industry participation

    Had any of Australia’s top brass had the intelligence to study the North American model they would have quickly discovered that an industry model subsidized by huge poker machine incomes or massive government grants could not be replicated in Australia

    There is now little left that Australian participants can do other than to try and slow down the ultimate demise of a professional sporting industry into an expensive “hobby” pastime

    To do this means that in Donald Trump terms the participants must call for the draining of the swamp

    The only way to achieve this is for concerned participants to create on–line petitions in their home States to call on Governments for a full review into the Governance of their sport with the objective of establishing a proven professional management regime model to strategically reposition the harness racing brand to meet the needs and wants of the public at large

    Anything less will see harness racing as we now know it disappear within the next decade and the gap filled by thoroughbred and greyhound racing

    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

  3. #23
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    I find the 40% reduction figure large for a last minute bump (maybe even for if a meeting was scheduled on Sky2)

    If that is the bump %, it suggests that 60% of our punters/turnover are casual observers.
    I base this on the fact that owner/stable connections are going to back it regardless
    Pro punters and others that have been following a particular horse are not going to be put off
    Those on course are going to still bet

    and therefore the 40% drop is loss of casuals

    I then say this is suggesting the Casual observer percentage is in the order of 60% for:
    Some casuals are not going to be lost as they have Sky2 or only have to look at the 'other screen' in the TAB when there is a bump (or phone app caters for this - I do not about this as I am not a phone person)
    And at least 10% of the 60% turnover that still eventuates would have to be casuals who have already put their bet on before the last minute bump
    I find 60% way too high for casuals and would think those groups I listed in the previous paragraph to be at least 60% of turnover not casuals

    It would be interesting to have some research but for the above reasons I find it hard to believe a bump costs us 40%
    It would not be hard to research you would just need somebody to asterisk every time a race is bumped
    Somehow, I doubt anybody in the harness industry or even Sky is doing that and so the 40% is just an estimate
    That is - if it is even the 'bump' figure.
    Far easier to do the maths (even retrospectively) if it is the figure for meets scheduled for Sky2
    Sorry Kev, you’ve lost me with your reckoning but why would you doubt that both the harness industry and Sky are monitoring closely what goes on in the “engine room” of their businesses? I think you’ll find when a “bump” occurs, not just that it occurs determines the degree of impact on turnover so any figure would just be an average.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    I am not sure you are trying
    Where have I lost you - for half my working life I was a chalkie so I'm sure I can teach you
    In the meantime:
    Do you think that a bump is going to put off
    - pro punters and others that have been following a particular horse
    - owner/stable connections
    - those on course
    - those in a TAB (which do have TV's on Sky2 too)
    -those who have Sky2 subs

    You have lost me on your reply - are you stating the obvious that when a bump occurs could determine the impact it has
    This however is overrated IMO as the number of times a race is bumped before its official starting time is minimal
    so how much do you think goes on 'at the jump' other than from the BIG boys/girls - who are not going to be worrying about which channel they are watching on

    You have a much rosier view of what HRV is doing than I have Dot
    Who would be monitoring whenever a race is bumped?
    The same person that used to (NOT) update the Suspended Drivers list on the HRV site - which has now disappeared along with anything under Integrity other than the Integrity Matters newsletter which is under 'News' and has NOT appeared this year
    (and yes, I know that Harnessweb users can access Suspended drivers)
    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

  5. #25
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    I don’t doubt the accuracy of the figures in Rays reports or the analysis of the situation but I’ve yet to read of a solution in Rays reports, a not what we need to achieve but a how to achieve it. Ray doesn’t have the answers any more then anyone else does, he just writes professionally and more elequently then the rest of us.
    Last edited by Messenger; 07-30-2019 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Forum rule: "Attack the argument not the person"

  6. #26
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    Perhaps I expressed myself poorly in post 18 Kev, Given the context of where and why it was included in the full "update", it does give an indication of how damaging it is. You're suggesting we've got our knickers in a knot over nothing Kev?

    In reference to how damaging it, being bumped, is; no I don't believe the figure of 40% is from being bumped. But if scheduling on Sky2 instead of Sky1 meant a reduction, why is it inconceivable being bumped would cause no damage? Hence "knickers in a knot over nothing". I don't think I'm exaggerating when I suggest even a 1% reduction is significant for us.

    I'm not sure of everyone's viewing situations but I have seen where a pro punter has #$@&*! when a harness race has been bumped. Many punters will also be betting on sports at the same time that's not interrupted/bumped.

    A great amount of turnover does come from participation. Participants which includes owners of course aren't happy with being bumped and I do know it does curtail turnover. Not sure of how someone new into syndication expects to watch their horse race but I imagine it might be via Sky 1 as a first choice.


    edit: As you suggest Kev, adding sky 2 to a Foxtel package might not be much of an imposition for many but considering how hard it is to get new people into syndication, wouldn't you rather they be spending that extra money (is it $30/month) on another horse or a little dabble?
    Last edited by arlington; 07-30-2019 at 11:42 AM.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    The thing with adding Sky2 is how ridiculous it is
    What I mean by that is that it is the only 'add on' of all their numerous sports channels
    All the rest are part of the sports package
    If you don't have the sports package (the only reason to have foxtel IMO) it is going to cost you to get that first ($30?) then it is $5/mth for Sky2

    What I have previously campaigned for is Sky2 to at least be part of the Sports package
    It is ridiculous that when they bump and say go to Sky2 they pretend everybody has it
    If something is scheduled for a basic package channel (that is what Sky1 is) it is not only rude but also bad business to bump it to a non-basic package channel - you are guaranteeing yourself complaints

    Foxtel will have to improve their game soon or Kayo Sports streaming sports without having to pay for a basic package is go to hurt them
    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

  8. #28
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    I have heavily edited post 25
    I make this extraordinary note as the post was on the board for 15hrs
    I apologize for my tardiness but I have never received any training to be a moderator but from the moment I read the post I was not comfortable with it
    It became clear to me what troubled me about the post

    I edited the post because the poster never disputed anything in this thread about a report that was written and circulated 10yrs ago
    But claimed that the author longer than 10yrs ago might have held a different opinion
    IMO the post then amounted to 'playing the man'
    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

  9. #29
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    Nothing to dispute in the 10 year old report except the viability of supporting small track inner city venues. The change in view from the author doesn’t preceed the 10 year old report it precedes the current report.

  10. #30
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    I think you will find Ray has questioned the US model for a while Dot
    I did a little research as you suggested in a pm
    and found this link to the american Harness Racing Update from 6yrs ago
    where on a night where they were racing for over $2.4mUS
    they dedicated 2 pages to 'It Cant Just Be About Slots'
    extensively quoting Ray Chaplin of Australia
    (It starts on pg3)

    https://harnessracingupdate.com/pdf/hru/hru081713.pdf

    Please keep replies relevant to what has been posted in this thread

    ps Despite what Dot might suggest, I do not think Ray is the Messiah
    but think his research is very much worth reading
    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

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