Black cavier

[aussiebreno]

Hi aussiebreno, we will have to disagree on this one. Crystal Lily - Golden Slipper winner, a race for 2 year olds, a Miss Andretti - I don,t think so. Ortensia is always getting there but rarely does and Star Witness, I would be surprised if they even take him to England. Eagle Falls was supposed to be some sort of sprinting hope a season or two ago, since then he,s done nothing. Mind you I've always said why should our horses have to go overseas to prove they are the best, Let the others come here. There has to be a substantial increase in sprinting stakemoney to lure them here. Why would they come here when they can race for much bigger stakes in Hong Kong or Japan?.

That says everything I need to know. Won a G1 last month.

Who cares if she doesnt 'prove' she is better than Rocket Man, JJ Jet Plane, Sacred Kingdom or whoever (Ive never seen them race why should I or the Aust public care)- the from says she'd be a odds on pop anyway. She is the most dominant horse since CUF was a juvenile. Absolutely amazing.

[craig]

Hey buster dont feel sorry for me because firstly i dont need you to and secondly at no stage did i say anything bad about the mare other then this is a harness site not a galloping site. As for my comments about the gallops been the new red hots i will stick by that. You only have to see More Strawberries run at warwick farm last saturday. Not good to have a leading trainer married to a leading bookmaker, or up here in Qld at eagle farm two wednesday ago the stewards closed an enquirey because they thought it would look bad for there indusrtry. The gallops are very good at covering up anything that looks bad for them. Have look at the Qld racing web site to see how many positive swabs the gallops have every week to deal with, yet have not seen a harness trainer here in Qld on any positives for a long time now. One last thing buster i dont have time to sit and watch horse races every day. Some of us get rich by working hard not dreaming about it.

[buster]

hey craig get yourself foxtel IQ and treat yourself some time in your pursuit of happiness

[triplev123]

I stay right away from the TB's. Once you leg the Monkeys up...you never know what they're going to do.

[Village Kid]

Hate to be the party pooper again. Black Caviar is a great sprinter but until she beats the worlds best it still has to be proven. That Newmarket field was the weakest lot of sprinters there has been for a while....and you can include Hay List amongst that lot. She came close to breaking the race record but she didn't. That means there are other horse's in the past that would have kept pace with her. The fact is the other so called sprinters are pathetic. Isn't Star Witness supposed to be going to Royal Ascot for their sprints?-you have to be joking.

Couldn't disagree more with all due respect Mighty Atom. Hay List was being talked up as a superstar in the Spring, and now that BC has thumped him twice he's suddenly a D Grader. Hot Danish was coming off 4 straight wins including the All Aged Satkes and Doomben 10,000 and got beaten 5.5 length by her in the Moir, and suddenly she's no good. Melito, there is talk of an overseas campaign focusing on Mile races like the Princess Anne Stakes at Ascot, she couldn't get within 8-10 lengths of BC in the Spring. And Ortensia ran Sacred Kingdom, JJ The Jet Plane Rocket Man and co to under 2 lengths in the HK International Sprint, yet couldn't get near the great Mare in the Emirates Classic.

She broke the Race Record, got win .2 of the track record unextended, carried 58Kg's (no horse of either sex has carried more in the modern era, and only Shaftesbury Avenue has carried as much and he was a champ himself) and thats not even taking into consideration she is a Mare and would have been in receipt of significant weight had it been WFA.

Sunline carried 58KGs in her 2nd Doncaster after 10 Group 1's inc. 2 Cox Plates, a Doncaster and a HK Mile win, Makybe Diva had 2 Melbourne Cups, a BMW, Cox Plate etc under her belt when she was asked to carry 58KGs in her 3rd Melbourne Cup win, and Black Caviar has carried 58Kgs after 9 starts as a 4 Yr old in our feature Group 1 Sprint!!

Will be interesting to see how Star Witness, Hay List and Co go overseas, he was disappointing yesterday Star Witness but I wouldn't write him off just yet.

BC is an out and out champion. I've never backed, her, probably never will but still you can't help but love her.

Still, that's what forums are about, differences of opinion!!

[Mighty Atom]

Hi Village Kid, Firstly, I will start with our current crop of sprinters ( Star Witness, Hay List, etc ). If they were taken over to the U.K. for the big sprints ( King's Stand etc ) they would be found wanting. Our great sprinters in the passed have gone over ( all much better than the aforementioned ) and performed brilliantly in the opening sprint but with the exception of Choisir,couldn't go on with it. As far as Hong Kong is concerned - no chance - and Singapore - doubtful. Someone on a previous comment said that Starspangledbanner wouldn't live with Black Caviar over 1200 metres. Just like to remind all that SPB was a super star international galloper able to maintain high speed over all distances up to 1600 m. Black Caviar has not achieved as yet what he has. As that over champion you mentioned - Shaftsbury Avenue - what a versatile champ he was. The horse sat 3 wide the entire way in the 1991 Japan Cup and ran 3rd to Golden Pheasant and should have won it. As much as BC is a sprinting champ she has yet to emulate the feats of these two great horses. Village Kid, always interesting to hear others views. Just an addition, I was never convinced about Hay List. I again thought he was racing a pretty average bunch of sprinters.

[Village Kid]

Great point re Shaftesbury Avenue MA, can you imagine a horse winning the Lightning/Newmarket and running 3rd in the Japan Cup the same year? Amazing!! And a terrible ride by the Gauch, 3 deep the trip from a decent draw as you said and yet still found himself near last behind a wall of horses at the top of the straight. What a horse he could have been had he remained sound.


Starspangledbanner is an interesting one, beaten comfortably by Wanted in the Lightning and Newmarket in the Autumn, yet able to win brilliantly multiple Group 1's overseas just a few months later. Black Caviar beat Wanted in the Spring down the straight at Flemington, despite missing the start and injuring herself in the process, so I certainly think the form lines up. Starspangledbanner, Choisir, Scenic Blast, by no mean dominating sprinters down under yet able to win features over the Ascot Carnival. The strength of the European sprinters certainly has to be questioned, hence why I think a few of our second string horses like Star Witness and Hay List wouldn't be out of place.

Just great to support Aussie horses overseas, whether they be in NZ for the Inters or at Royal Ascot in front of the Queen. Would be great to see the mare on the International stage, but with her history of injury I hope she just stands up to a few more runs this campaign.

Cheers

[aussiebreno]

Hi Village Kid, Firstly, I will start with our current crop of sprinters ( Star Witness, Hay List, etc ). If they were taken over to the U.K. for the big sprints ( King's Stand etc ) they would be found wanting. Our great sprinters in the passed have gone over ( all much better than the aforementioned ) and performed brilliantly in the opening sprint but with the exception of Choisir,couldn't go on with it. As far as Hong Kong is concerned - no chance - and Singapore - doubtful. Someone on a previous comment said that Starspangledbanner wouldn't live with Black Caviar over 1200 metres. Just like to remind all that SPB was a super star international galloper able to maintain high speed over all distances up to 1600 m. Black Caviar has not achieved as yet what he has. As that over champion you mentioned - Shaftsbury Avenue - what a versatile champ he was. The horse sat 3 wide the entire way in the 1991 Japan Cup and ran 3rd to Golden Pheasant and should have won it. As much as BC is a sprinting champ she has yet to emulate the feats of these two great horses. Village Kid, always interesting to hear others views. Just an addition, I was never convinced about Hay List. I again thought he was racing a pretty average bunch of sprinters.

Hay List would be found wanting at Royal Ascot...he is better than Ortensia who got beat just 1.8lengths by JJ The Jet Plane who would beat anything the English have.

Exactly, Starstangledbanner is a superstar international galloper. Yet he wasnt that great in Australia. Is that telling you something? On his Australian form Black Caviar would beat him by 10lengths. He won July Cup and Golden Jubilee after failing in the Newmarket. Black Caviar wins the Newmarket untapped by 3 lengths and you want to say she is no good. LOL

[Mighty Atom]

Hay List would be found wanting at Royal Ascot...he is better than Ortensia who got beat just 1.8lengths by JJ The Jet Plane who would beat anything the English have.

Exactly, Starstangledbanner is a superstar international galloper. Yet he wasnt that great in Australia. Is that telling you something? On his Australian form Black Caviar would beat him by 10lengths. He won July Cup and Golden Jubilee after failing in the Newmarket. Black Caviar wins the Newmarket untapped by 3 lengths and you want to say she is no good. LOL

I've noticed that the connections of Hay List have decided not to take him to Royal Ascot - smart move. What really gets up my nose is the way people are all to eager to declare a horse a champion, put it on a pedestal and idolize it.I have nothing against the horse, I think she is a champion, but she has nothing to measure her ability by. Most of the great sprinters of the world head to the big international sprints where the big money is,that is where you find out how good they are.It is no point in" saying let them come here to race"because we've got no money. I'm sure they would if we did. So hopefully, in the future, BC can put her champion tag on the line and follow some of the other great sprinters of the world. Then we can see how good she is. I,m happy the connections have no plans to take her overseas as a four year old but maybe next year. We have been far too carried away by the international ratings system declaring her the best sprinter in the world.

[aussiebreno]

I've noticed that the connections of Hay List have decided not to take him to Royal Ascot - smart move. What really gets up my nose is the way people are all to eager to declare a horse a champion, put it on a pedestal and idolize it.I have nothing against the horse, I think she is a champion, but she has nothing to measure her ability by. Most of the great sprinters of the world head to the big international sprints where the big money is,that is where you find out how good they are.It is no point in" saying let them come here to race"because we've got no money. I'm sure they would if we did. So hopefully, in the future, BC can put her champion tag on the line and follow some of the other great sprinters of the world. Then we can see how good she is. I,m happy the connections have no plans to take her overseas as a four year old but maybe next year. We have been far too carried away by the international ratings system declaring her the best sprinter in the world.

No-one in the horse racing industry in Australia give the International ratings system any credence anyway - whether it had her rated 145 or 115.

If you cant see Black Caviar is the best in the world and the best Australia has had for a long time then I strongly suggest you dont punt on horse racing ever again. Its a very easy formline to follow. Black Caviar >>>>>>> Starspangledbanner >>> The English. Or Black Caviar >>>>>JJ Jet Plane >>> Ortensia ; given Black Caviar >>>>>>>>>>> Ortensia and JJ Jet Plane >>> Ortensia