Concurrent OR Cumulative

[trish]

Hi Trish,
What I meant (and I'm probably being cynical) that if any major doping scandal arose it may not even see the light of day because harness racing authorities know it would be the end as far as the betting public are concerned. I found this out on a personal level training horses in the 80's all the honest trainers knew that we were not competing against the major stables on a level playing field but there was absolutely nothing we could do about it. It may be an overstatement, but I'm not so sure.

No worries Rod . I think the big difference now is that the existence of harness racing depends on it . If they sit on their hands they'll end up as security guards at the gallops

[Race For Fun]

There is no denying Viv's comments:
(Viv hope you don't mind that I put them in point form)

1. Drugs will kill this industry.
2. And they know the cheats are winning.
3. Everytime they close one avenue off, the drug cheats find a new one.
4. By the time the authorities get on top of that one, the drug cheats will be on to something else.

I fear that these points are right on the money. I have to believe that the stewards are doing everything within their power to catch the cheats (I am not implying anything other than my opinion). Authorities around the world have the same problem of chasing/catching up to drug cheats. What a waste of funds that could go into racing but have to be spent chasing the cheats. I wonder where the industry will be in 10 years time? I can not think of anything that has been a bigger threat to the survival of the industry. Sorry I think I'm just rambling, I just wanted to put it on paper..............

[Mister JayKO]

Most people are on the same page here. Look back over time of the stables that "dominated" for a period, many have more than question marks against them - positive swabs or not. My view is that administrators take the view that if they were ever able to get ahead of the game just once, they wouldn't go through with it - the damage they fear would be too great. I would counter that the damage being done at the moment will continue to erode the industry, the people that actually make it tick will walk away. The gentleman who taught me virtually everything I know about the sport and let me drive his horses at every opportunity is now a broken man and disillusioned with the sport. He's tasted the highs, but now mostly the lows. A man who despises drug cheats has over recent times lost a few north - where the horses have turned into lear jets. I know the horses well - but the ones racing now are not the same ones that he had. Somewhere in a thread I heard "Indian Herbs" mentioned - must be the new name, bottom line, whether it's EPO, Blue Magic, Aranesp, Cresp, Milkshakes, Cobalt and now Ice, (they are only the ones I am aware of in my lifetime) the chemists will always be ahead of the game. I am very cynical with regard to the current "dominators" that if I drew up a family tree of stables that I suspect aren't all 100% legit - in each case I can trace strong links back to the good old USA and if you follow my lead that we tend to lag 6-12 months or more behind them just check out where the sport is headed there.

[2minuteman]

Should we be thinking a bit wider with the fight against dopers?
I think so,some sports are now having "blood passports" where the swab is actually taken at a time when it is unlikely that the gear is being used.The blood profile subsequently gained then becomes the bench mark and if a subsequent swab shows a deviation from that norm it is incumbent on the "swabee" to explain what caused the deviation
Moves the onus of proof to where it should be. Discuss.

[trish]

Should we be thinking a bit wider with the fight against dopers?
I think so,some sports are now having "blood passports" where the swab is actually taken at a time when it is unlikely that the gear is being used.The blood profile subsequently gained then becomes the bench mark and if a subsequent swab shows a deviation from that norm it is incumbent on the "swabee" to explain what caused the deviation
Moves the onus of proof to where it should be. Discuss.

Great thinking Ron, I wonder weather it would be possible to come up with a maximum level for a red blood cell count, like they have with bi-card & cobalt.

[2minuteman]

Great thinking Ron, I wonder weather it would be possible to come up with a maximum level for a red blood cell count, like they have with bi-card & cobalt.

Hi,Trish,this is apparently a major part of what is to be done.I can hear the reason for not doing it,"it will cost money!"as if the current situation is not.

[HISGEN65]

good post Trish...spot on

[Mighty Atom]

Most people are on the same page here. Look back over time of the stables that "dominated" for a period, many have more than question marks against them - positive swabs or not. My view is that administrators take the view that if they were ever able to get ahead of the game just once, they wouldn't go through with it - the damage they fear would be too great. I would counter that the damage being done at the moment will continue to erode the industry, the people that actually make it tick will walk away. The gentleman who taught me virtually everything I know about the sport and let me drive his horses at every opportunity is now a broken man and disillusioned with the sport. He's tasted the highs, but now mostly the lows. A man who despises drug cheats has over recent times lost a few north - where the horses have turned into lear jets. I know the horses well - but the ones racing now are not the same ones that he had. Somewhere in a thread I heard "Indian Herbs" mentioned - must be the new name, bottom line, whether it's EPO, Blue Magic, Aranesp, Cresp, Milkshakes, Cobalt and now Ice, (they are only the ones I am aware of in my lifetime) the chemists will always be ahead of the game. I am very cynical with regard to the current "dominators" that if I drew up a family tree of stables that I suspect aren't all 100% legit - in each case I can trace strong links back to the good old USA and if you follow my lead that we tend to lag 6-12 months or more behind them just check out where the sport is headed there.

Hi Stu,
agree to everything you've said there and I can add another couple from the 80's to the list of cocktails you have there - Sublimaze and Palfium.

[trish]

Most people are on the same page here. Look back over time of the stables that "dominated" for a period, many have more than question marks against them - positive swabs or not. My view is that administrators take the view that if they were ever able to get ahead of the game just once, they wouldn't go through with it - the damage they fear would be too great. I would counter that the damage being done at the moment will continue to erode the industry, the people that actually make it tick will walk away. The gentleman who taught me virtually everything I know about the sport and let me drive his horses at every opportunity is now a broken man and disillusioned with the sport. He's tasted the highs, but now mostly the lows. A man who despises drug cheats has over recent times lost a few north - where the horses have turned into lear jets. I know the horses well - but the ones racing now are not the same ones that he had. Somewhere in a thread I heard "Indian Herbs" mentioned - must be the new name, bottom line, whether it's EPO, Blue Magic, Aranesp, Cresp, Milkshakes, Cobalt and now Ice, (they are only the ones I am aware of in my lifetime) the chemists will always be ahead of the game. I am very cynical with regard to the current "dominators" that if I drew up a family tree of stables that I suspect aren't all 100% legit - in each case I can trace strong links back to the good old USA and if you follow my lead that we tend to lag 6-12 months or more behind them just check out where the sport is headed there.

Excellent post Stu, it would seem as though you have read my thoughts. Well said.

[Messenger]

We need a Hall of Shame as well as a Hall of Fame.
Where does one find a historical list of suspensions
When making breeding decisions one needs to know if a family's star horse was a great pedigree or great 'gear'

I would start such a thread but it would have to be 100% accurate and even then our forum's administration would still be entitled to close it down

My degree of dedication to the sport has waxed and waned over 45yrs but it still sticks with me from long ago that there was a great American trainer of 2yo's who used to move his stable on at the end of each season because "I don't want to compete with the chemists". It was his thinking that said chemists could have less advantage at this age unless they were bloody good horsemen too