If you owned RnR Heaven or Muscle Massive

[Fullerton]

Where would you stand them?

[Diamond Creek]

If I owned Rock N Roll Heaven I would stand him in New York. A smaller than average horse with above average speed especially on a half...he would be a standout in New York. Besides American Ideal, New York is badly missing Western Hanover-sired blood. As for Muscle Massive, he should race next year. He has not done enough to stand in the major states (or at the major farms). Besides his Hambletonian win (which was very impressive) he lacks another major stakes win. A top notch 4 year old campaign (similar to Art Major, Artsplace, Real Desire) would go far in establishing himself as a top-notch stallion candidate.

[mango]

Hi Diamond Creek
I reckon both horses should race i think they should bring some rule in that if you don't race at 4 you cant go to stud untill after that year that you turned 4. It would be interesting to see the open ranks race wk in wk out with the top horses. The 3 horses that you mentioned who raced at 4 what a tremendous job they done and even look at Western Ideal Didn't do much as a 2 and 4yo did not race at 3 but what a horse at 5 and now he's done a great job at stud. It's just an idea and i know a lot of people won't like it but seeing the older horses going at it is great, in Australia you get Blacks a Fake, Smoken up, Mr Feelgood, Monkey king who are the older horses and then it's great watching the 4 and 5yo comming through and trying to match them.

[Joe Fitz]

Muscle Massive has shared Canadian and Swedish ownership, so he may wind up in one or both places. He's a very attractive stallion due to his impeccable breeding--nice to see Pine Chip on the bottom line--and his perfect conformation. The fact that he sold for $425,000 as a yearling tells us a lot about him. He doesn't need to do any more on the track to attract breeders.

Rocknroll Heaven is part of a tsunami of Western Hanover/Rocknroll Hanover blood that is going to create problems for breeders who want to avoid inbreeding over the course of the next couple of decades. The fact that Artsplace is on the bottom line is both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, it keeps Adios alive and well on the bottom, but the downside is that Artsplace is already a big player on the bottom.

It's a shame that One More Laugh isn't a complete horse. He goes back to Bret Hanover on top and would have provided a nice alternative for breeders looking for some variety.

It is nice to see Bettor's Delight, who passes on that wicked Cam's Card Shark Speed, being so successful.

Break The Bank, out of the foreign trotter Revenue, is another one we should be rooting for.

[Diamond Creek]

People always whine about too much of this blood and not enough of that but the genetics seem to always have a way of working out a semi even balance over time. Go back just 10 years or less and all you heard was how Valley Victory blood dominated the landscape. Within a couple of years, Garland Lobell sired brothers and Credit Winner tipped the balance a bit more even. Before Western Hanover, it was all Abercrombie and Albatross. Its all hogwash anyways.

There is no question that Muscle Massive on pedigree and conformation can stand in places like Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, or even Kentucky but it will be hard pressed to find him a home at any major breeding farm. He has accomplished far too little to be placed alongside the top stallions in the business.

[jammsb]

Diamond Creek you are so correct. These self proclaimed theoreticians have rarely, if ever bred a good horse or some times a single horse - whether good or bad. Yet they want to go about hollering and screaming about what people who have invested their lives and souls in breeding horses should do with the horses they own.

[Joe Fitz]

All these fools pay attention to what crosses have been successful and what crosses have not. Better to put the names of appropriately priced stallions in a hat and pick one out.

[jammsb]

Joe Fitz, Don't you think that factors such as size, conformation, gait, temperment, market viability should play a part in people's decisions? If it were only successful or not successful crosses that were the be all and end to breeding good horses, then the breeding business would be a whole lot easier than it is. Successful crosses are a part of the overall puzzle, but only a part. Perhaps there have been some successful breeders who have enjoyed their success while sitting in a rocking chair reading statistic, but I do not know of any.

[newschool]

Diamond Creek you are so correct. These self proclaimed theoreticians have rarely, if ever bred a good horse or some times a single horse - whether good or bad. Yet they want to go about hollering and screaming about what people who have invested their lives and souls in breeding horses should do with the horses they own.

I would not be so quick to throw Diamond Creek in with the theorists who accomplish nothing. If my hunch is correct, Diamond Creek has already accomplished more in breeding superior Standardbreds in just a few years as a new breeder than most have accomplished in a lifetime. When he speaks, I listen and hope to learn something from one of the bright young minds in the breeding business.

[newschool]

Joe Fitz, Don't you think that factors such as size, conformation, gait, temperment, market viability should play a part in people's decisions? If it were only successful or not successful crosses that were the be all and end to breeding good horses, then the breeding business would be a whole lot easier than it is. Successful crosses are a part of the overall puzzle, but only a part. Perhaps there have been some successful breeders who have enjoyed their success while sitting in a rocking chair reading statistic, but I do not know of any.

I agree that these physical and commercial factors need to be considered in every breeding decision. I also believe that most of the successful matings are carefully constructed by combining past generations of both the sire and the dam. Basically, good breeding decisions take alot of work and consideration.