Reply With QuoteWhy don't we asume that the police have a better idea than us on how to successfully conduct an investigation
I agree that the police taskforce should take as long as they need to gather evidence against all those involved. However, HRNSW came out a couple of months ago, saying they will drop names, wielding the stick so to speak, and ready to take action, and now they've gone all quiet on the matter, as though hopefully it's going to go away. We have a driver in his 20's who admitted guilt in regards to the cheating, and apparently another leading driver as well who has already enlisted top legal aid. If these blokes have come forward and claim to have participated in the rorting, why cannot they be named and shamed, they admitted guilt for god sake. Instead they're allowed to continue participating, basically spitting in the face of every honest trainer when they show up to the track on race night.
My issue here is how quiet HRNSW has gone on this matter, after coming out all guns blazing before. If they are seriously doing something about it, I believe they should be making weekly media statements to inform all honest participants where they are up to with proceedings and how far along the matter has come etc. whilst keeping the gag order in mind.
Last edited by The Rainmaker; 09-16-2011 at 10:35 AM. Reason: spelling
Why don't we asume that the police have a better idea than us on how to successfully conduct an investigation
I've given things more thought since my last post and in retrospect I suppose a desire for vengeance, for want of a better word, got in the way of good judgement. The dual investigations should take as long as is required to prove guilt and, hopefully, punishments meted out will fit the crime. This being racing I am sure that there is a whole lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes to complicate matters as well.Originally Posted by coldshot
The people at HRNSW might want to say more however if their hands are tied, then they are tied.
Voiceofreason, I do see your point.
Does anyone else get a cold shiver when it is mentioned that NSW police are investigating this????
Voiceofreason, I understand your point.
Does anyone else get a cold shiver when the NSW police are mentioned as being the ones investigating this??????????'
Well said Flashing, Breno, VOR & Mark C.
Unfortunately legally dispensed justice is rarely if ever as swift as the wronged parties would like it to be... but in this case, while it will certainly take considerable time I believe that it will ultimately be very extensive and long lasting.
The comprehensive lack of understand of the Law displayed in some of the comments to this thread is quite astounding to say the least.
The fact is that if every single t is not crossed and every single i is not dotted, that sets up immediate grounds for lack of due process/denial of natural justice appeals...and this extends to both HRNSW and the NSW Police.
People should not allow themselves to forget that it is the Organised Crime Squad that is on the case here. A few blokes I went to school with are no Detectives and a couple are Federal Police and those guys in Organised Crime are the hard arses of the hard arses.This is not a rising 2yrs in the Force local General Duties Constable taking a statement over the counter at your local Police Station. I want a reckoning as badly as anyone but we need to sit tight and let the fellas do their job.
Last edited by triplev123; 09-16-2011 at 02:01 PM.
I'm well versed in the law and understand the processes that have to be followed here and I'm just as well aware of the need to follow procedure from a Harness Racing rules point of view as well. As I said earlier it's a balancing act in terms of both sides because while it lingers on the integrity of the industry from an external point of view continues to take a hammering. If you haven't had someone from outside the industry ask you exactly what is going on then you are in the minority. When it does break - it's going to be bigger than the now defunct Ben Hur.
It's quite clear that some big players in this are already "lawyering up" in an attempt to extend their tenure in the sport.
This is to my knowledge the first investigation where the police have been involved for a long time. I am aware of ICAC allegations and personally I thought the Coloresque incident was a no brainer for prosecution but for whatever reason it never went ahead.
In part I have to agree with Ringman in some regard. I have seen many rorts played out over my time in the sport, the middle 90's in Sydney was a low time, form guides became irrelevant, the key was whether or not the stewards were testing for TC02 on the said night. Whilst they may not be as sophisticated as the current one, a rort is still a rort. It takes a real eye to know when something's off and to have that eye you have to have some participant knowledge.
On the flipside, Sam Nati is as good an operator as they come and his knowledge in the area is invaluable. Information is king in the punting business. He would make a great Steward and I suppose as CEO that is what he is. His past (as a Punter) is largely irrelevant. I remember being in the ring with him one night at HP - we knew one was off (based upon the activity in the ring) and just shook our heads.
It's a hard one but I reckon we need to get away from the matey relationships between stewards / administrators and participants that have blighted the industry in the past. There will be some very embarrassing times ahead when poster kids are outed in this rort.
They need life bans and full prosecution - nothing less.
I think everyone here is on the same page, we all want what is best for the sport in regards to this matter. The way I see it is there are two different opinions here, there is the ‘correct opinion’, which is let the investigation take its course no matter how long it takes, innocent til proven guilty etc. And that’s fine, I don’t disagree with that. And there is also the ‘dudded opinion’, which is doing what’s right for the honest participants out there, whom feel duded and violated, whom want this matter dealt with as soon as possible, and for those involved to be named and shamed, of which there are many people actively involved in the sport who continue to face these alleged rorters and cheats everytime they turn up to Menangle on a Tuesday afternoon, Penrith on a Thursday night and Menangle on a Saturday night still allowed to participate. The fact there are drivers out there who have admitted guilt in the rorts and have not been stood down or publicly named is beyond me. I’d like to make the following comments on the matters thus far:
1. Mark Vallender and Robbie Byrnes ‘Warned Off’
These two named who failed to hand over phone records, and then warned off all racecourses, but they cannot name those currently co-operating with the investigation? Wouldn’t this make those who are co-operating with the investigation look less suspect than those who were warned off? The harness racing public have a right to know who is under investigation without any fingers being pointed until proven guilty if there is such evidence.
2. Legal Representation
The Sydney Morning Herald mention two cases. It mentions a “warned off” driver will be enlisting legal representation to try and overturn the ban. The other one is a leading driver allegedly involved in the rorts has employed one of Sydney’s finest lawyers for his case. The way I see it, if one bloke handed over his phone records, and the other abided by the rules there would be no problem. But now we have such cases that those deliberately breaking the rules enlist high priced lawyers to get them off on technicalities, therefore getting no penalty imposed, and they return to the sport and continue to suck the game dry as they have done in years past. As we all know, legal representation isn’t cheap, so the question should be asked how many participants who are charged and fight their case with high priced lawyers are funding it with the proceeds of their months of rorting to actually get off their charges? Food for thought.
3. Police Strikeforce
I can see this turning into a big ‘White Elephant’, a lot of time and cost for nothing. How many people at the end of this are going to end up in Gaol or with assets and cash repossessed? My guess is none. Supposedly HRNSW were privately investigating the disgraced stewards for 6 months before the infamous day where they ‘tendered their resignations’. Sam Nati then came out and said, “Heads will roll, Houses will be lost” promising swift action, the naming of names etc. This was going on two months ago, and now since HRNSW has gone all quiet and left it to the special strikeforce to work through the investigation. I can understand if there was a gag order from NSW Police, but the honest participants out there want to know that you are keeping on fighting the fight, and that we are going to get answers soon. However, my question is, if HRNSW thought criminal conduct was going on during their initial 6 month internal investigation, why weren't police contacted to set up a secret strikeforce while these stewards were still employed to catch them and the associated trainers and drivers red handed, before the rorts became public knowledge? I cannot see how this strikeforce in place now can pin too much on those involved after the events. I get the feeling the police are going to come up empty handed when HRNSW could already be dealing with these people under their own rules.
At the end of the day the honest participants want the truth and we all want the right result here. I just hope it all comes out sooner rather than later because many participants are becoming impatient.
Last edited by The Rainmaker; 09-16-2011 at 04:08 PM. Reason: spelling
And this time let's hope a LIFE ban will actually mean LIFE , not with some clause to let them crawl back from under their rock at some time in the future and be given a license again because of "family circumstances". No second chances this time EVER.
Getting legal representation does not mean someone is guilty of anywrong doing. I would never, ever go to an appeal, hearing, whatever, without legal representation, no matter how small the infraction is. IMHO harness racing hearings, appeals etc have A LOT to be desired in regards to due process/natural justice and I would want to make sure that those prosecuting me are playing within the rules. Has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocence.
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