Goodbye Lance

[A BIT DUSTY]

I always wondered what would happen if a horse that has been given pain relief? Fall's during a race, injuring other horses and people.

When I have a sore back I do not play football, my thinking is that I will just hurt my back more, am I wrong in thinking this way?

No you are dead right and that is one of the reasons they are banned , if a horse has a problem that is masked by bute or other painkillers there is a very real danger of the horse having a catastrophic breakdown and bringing everyone down.

[Gtrain]

I always wondered what would happen if a horse that has been given pain relief? Fall's during a race, injuring other horses and people.

When I have a sore back I do not play football, my thinking is that I will just hurt my back more, am I wrong in thinking this way?

Many would though. Depends how tough you are. Professional athletes use painkillers regularly. Ask any Aussie quick or NRL player. I have used them myself and will again. I can see both sides of the argument and this is exactly where our laws have differed from USA previously. Does seem strange for it to be ok for human use but not animal.
On this similar topic I have heard of a procedure where a horse can have nerves severed in the fetlock to eliminate pain in the area and continue to race. I realize this is very taboo but has anyone heard of a similar thing?

[A BIT DUSTY]

Many would though. Depends how tough you are. Professional athletes use painkillers regularly. Ask any Aussie quick or NRL player. I have used them myself and will again. I can see both sides of the argument and this is exactly where our laws have differed from USA previously. Does seem strange for it to be ok for human use but not animal.
On this similar topic I have heard of a procedure where a horse can have nerves severed in the fetlock to eliminate pain in the area and continue to race. I realize this is very taboo but has anyone heard of a similar thing?

The procedure you refer to is called a Nervectomy. I have heard of it being done in the bottom of the pastern to allow horses with navicular disease or pedal bone injuries to be free of pain but IMO to deaden the leg up as high as the fetlock would be extreme as the horse would have no feeling below the point of severance. The down side to this procedure is the danger of the horse doing further damage and also the nerve rejoins after about 2yrs so its not a long term fix.

[aussiebreno]

Is that right ??? so if the horse is only capable of performing at 80% in pain and its given pain relief and performs at 95% that hasnt improved its performance had it run with the pain.

It didn't increase the horses ultimate potential. It did not enhance performance - it only allowed potential to be realised.
If that is a performance enhancer than so is water and food. Without water and food you may only race at say 25% but with it you can race at 100%. So are water and food performance enhancers too?
Something that makes the horse go to 101% is a performance enhancer.
A horse could be given something on the Tuesday, that then allows it to race on Saturday. By the Saturday it is out of its system but do we do midweek testing at stables for drugs that allowed horses to reach potential?
No, there are two different classes of drugs - ones you can have at the stables and ones you can't because they are on different levels of the spectrum.

Brendan why do you think they are banned? if they do not enhance performance. and nobody is saying that it improves a horse or makes them run faster than they normally can , but allowing them to take away everyday pain that is part and parcel with performance horses is ENHANCING its performance.

Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!

[triplev123]

Jamie, not sure about your own grasp of the chemical struture of DMSO ( Dimenthyl Sulfoxide-- ( CH3 ) 2 SO. ) clinical tests have proven that at fairly high dosage rates it can have a significant effect on water retention, which can, obviously,have an effect on performance. However, having said that the amount found in Smokin' Up after the race was only slightly above the permissable threshold and in no way could have enhanced his performance even if it is ever proven that it was in his system during the race.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you were trying to make to Ringman, but DMNSO is banned for a reason.

Cheers,
Dan

[VVV] Like a host of other such basically inocuous substances Dan, it is actually banned because it is an easier path to simply ban everything than it is for Administrative & Regulatory persons throughout Australia to get their individual and collective heads out of the respective arses & educate themselves as to the respective pro's and con's and take a practical view thereof. It's in the Too Hard basket.
The most unfortunate aspect of this of course is the very thing that our Draconian medication rules work to prevent...is the very thing that Harness Racing and for that matter all 3 Codes of racing desire...a wagering product that is capable of producing and maintaining consistent, handicappable form.
For example, currently a Trainer can score himself/herself a Bute positive 5-6-7+ days post administration despite the fact that pharmacologically as in pain relief wise it basically ceases working within 12 hours and it is completely shot to hell within 24hrs? Riddle me than, Batman.

[triplev123]

It didn't increase the horses ultimate potential. It did not enhance performance - it only allowed potential to be realised.
If that is a performance enhancer than so is water and food. Without water and food you may only race at say 25% but with it you can race at 100%. So are water and food performance enhancers too?
Something that makes the horse go to 101% is a performance enhancer.
A horse could be given something on the Tuesday, that then allows it to race on Saturday. By the Saturday it is out of its system but do we do midweek testing at stables for drugs that allowed horses to reach potential?
No, there are two different classes of drugs - ones you can have at the stables and ones you can't because they are on different levels of the spectrum.


Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!

[VVV] Well said Breno.

[ringman]

I would reply......... but i dont know what will be permitted after a couple of my posts with nothing untoward in them has been deleted.

[Danno]

[VVV] Like a host of other such basically inocuous substances Dan, it is actually banned because it is an easier path to simply ban everything than it is for(1) Administrative & Regulatory persons throughout Australia to get their individual and collective heads out of the respective arses & educate themselves as to the respective pro's and con's and take a practical view thereof. (2)It's in the Too Hard basket.
The most unfortunate aspect of this of course is the very thing that our Draconian medication rules work to prevent...is the very thing that Harness Racing and for that matter all 3 Codes of racing desire...(3) a wagering product that is capable of producing and maintaining consistent, handicappable form.
For example, currently a Trainer can score himself/herself a Bute positive 5-6-7+ days post administration despite the fact that pharmacologically as in pain relief wise it basically ceases working within 12 hours and it is completely shot to hell within 24hrs? Riddle me than, Batman.

(1) I really don't think the hard working, dedicated albiet often frustrated people administering our sport would, in the slightest, appreciate your desciption of them.

(2) If it's in the "too hard Basket", would this not mean the afformentioned administarors have looked at changing the rules on some therapeutic drugs but, as yet, cannot come up with a plan that works in a practicle way that the industry/sports participants can cope with?

(3) until it can be guaranteed that every time each horse races it is carrying the exact same doses of regulated drugs, then consistent form cannot be assured. Many of these drugs need to be administered 4 to 5 hours in advance of competition. In order for that to happen then each horse using regulated drugs needs to go to the track 4 to 5 hours before it's race. this may work at The Meadowlands where the majority of the runners are stabled on site but in the land of OZ where we are spread out over vast distances, the majority of horses are trained at private establishments and our game would not survive without hobby trainers, (who have a job to tend to) no wonder it's in the too hard basket.

[A BIT DUSTY]

It didn't increase the horses ultimate potential. It did not enhance performance - it only allowed potential to be realised.
If that is a performance enhancer than so is water and food. Without water and food you may only race at say 25% but with it you can race at 100%. So are water and food performance enhancers too?
Something that makes the horse go to 101% is a performance enhancer.
A horse could be given something on the Tuesday, that then allows it to race on Saturday. By the Saturday it is out of its system but do we do midweek testing at stables for drugs that allowed horses to reach potential?


Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!


No, there are two different classes of drugs - ones you can have at the stables and ones you can't because they are on different levels of the spectrum.


Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!

Sorry to hear you are ailing Brendan ,but I don't think Ian Thorp would be looking over his shoulder for you, even if you was 100%. If you took the time to read my thread I made the point that pain killers can not improve a horses ability so to use your silly little analogy does not make sense (I think I have read others say the same). In your own research you have proven what I have been trying to explain to you , EFFECTIVENESS 1 power to produce results, 2 the state of being operative , 3 to produce as an effect, Brendan you can see from your own words that pain killers ENHANCE ones ability to perform.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Gentleman,

This is an interesting debate.

Jamie is not quite right it was in the too hard basket there is no doubt of that.

However there is a very genuine push to improve things internationally currently within the Thoroughbred code.

They are working towards detection screening limits to be set worldwide it is as you can imagine a massive task but there efforts appear to be a genuine.

The stumbling block in the past has been America where race day treatments of some therapeutic substances has been permitted on race days in some states, my information is that the Americans are more than open to move on this now.

Also there have been massive improvement in the ability to detect the parent drug in blood, some analysts say this this is the way of the future because in most cases if its in the blood it is still having an effect on the horse.

Some caution tho it will not happen tomorrow.