Best Value Stallion

[Flashing Red]

G'day Troops,

In virtually all instances... save of course the rare superstar sire... you have to consider the opportunities that were afforded each sire by way of mare numbers and mare quality.
In that respect everyone's going to have their own views on what constitutes a good, bad or indifferent shot at the big leagues...however it is obviously reasonable to suggest that a horse like Dawn Ofa New Day got both significantly fewer and generally lesser quality mares than did the likes of Art Major. For Dawn Ofa New Day to then produce an Oz 2yo colt of the Year was really quite significant while had Art Major done so it would still have been an achievement but it would also have been somewhat expected of him.
Going back to the opening question of this thread... the best value sire under 5k in Australia at the present time, IMO, is Artistic Fella. I've only relatively recently come to this conclusion by way of seeing some of his first foals. If he doesn't make the grade as a sire here in Oz I'll eat my old Lawn Mowing Shoes.

Yet, Triplev, on another thread you stated something along the lines of a good stallion will produce great offspring with lesser quality mares. What side of the fence are you on? :P For mine only 16 to the races out of 60 doesn't cut the mustard (yet - but early days) and there was a huge difference between his best and then next ones along... To be fair, looking at his race record although a very nice stakes winning colt, he was not as good as for example Rocknroll Hanover or Lis Mara and I am guessing he will sire accordingly... There is the saying they can all sire a good one, let's see if he sires a good one this year too, hopefully for connections he will

[Flashing Red]

If we are talking about best value stallion we have to choose a stallion who is proven as first year sires cannot be regarded as best value as they have not produced any progeny. I would go for Falcon seelster a sire who can produce colts or fillies and is a proven broodmare sire, he is a stallion which has an all round game.

I agree.

Live or Die for me. Around $2,500 and he can produce Cup horses. Enough said

[Flashing Red]

G'day Troops,

In virtually all instances... save of course the rare superstar sire... you have to consider the opportunities that were afforded each sire by way of mare numbers and mare quality.
In that respect everyone's going to have their own views on what constitutes a good, bad or indifferent shot at the big leagues...however it is obviously reasonable to suggest that a horse like Dawn Ofa New Day got both significantly fewer and generally lesser quality mares than did the likes of Art Major. For Dawn Ofa New Day to then produce an Oz 2yo colt of the Year was really quite significant while had Art Major done so it would still have been an achievement but it would also have been somewhat expected of him.
Going back to the opening question of this thread... the best value sire under 5k in Australia at the present time, IMO, is Artistic Fella. I've only relatively recently come to this conclusion by way of seeing some of his first foals. If he doesn't make the grade as a sire here in Oz I'll eat my old Lawn Mowing Shoes.

Also had to add...

This is a reason why I like Four Starzzz Shark. While the past season his progeny have seemed to drop a little bit, earlier in the piece (the past few seasons) he was getting, statistic wise, in the US, the same amount of 1:55 or better 2yos and $100,000+ season earnings for 2yos as horses like Art Major. Art Major got more but he had more runners. Percentage wise they were almost the same. That is what first attracted him to me, as there is NO WAY the calibre of mares he recieved would have matched that of Art Major. It works both ways, I'm not a total discounting meanie and I don't look at statistics or ratios in a vacuum!

[justdoit]

Safely kept, Sundon. Happy to keep or sell progeny.

[mango]

Hi Flashing Red
Live or Die for $2,500 is that the deal there doing cause he's advertised for $4,400 ?

[Flashing Red]

Hi Flashing Red
Live or Die for $2,500 is that the deal there doing cause he's advertised for $4,400 ?

I stand to be corrected... I thought that was what he was advertised for last year, I have not looked him up this year, so you may well be right. Thanks. Even for 4.4k I would still class it as value!! Thanks and sorry

[triplev123]

That's the point I thought I made Flashing ?
There is no one side of the fence to this.

A bad sire simply cannot be helped no matter what level of mare quality/numbers he receives (Die Laughing for example, he got the virtual who's who of broodmares in his initial seasons and platzed with them).

A moderate sire might appear better than he really is given initially good quality/numbers of mares (The Panderosa, similarly in his initial seasons he covered a virtual who's who of the broodmare ranks at the time. I think this will see him become a prominent broodmare sire in years to come but that's another story).

A great sire will overcome any and all impediments to success including intially moderate to poor quality/quantity mare support (Christian Cullen, we've seen his efforts up close).

The really interesting aspect to all this for me at least is that once they're recognised & the commercial breeders come knocking on their door, those great sires that have come in from the cold don't then tend to produce much, much better racehorses than before, despite significantly increased quality & numbers of mares.
Christian Cullen is again a terrific case on point.
Despite him covering some of the best bred/producing mares in the Southern Hemisphere throughout numerous seasons IMO he hasn't produced horses of any greater ability than he did from his initial crops ex small numbers of mixed bag mares. He has simply produced a greater number of good horses. I think I might have said this elsewhere...but I believe that is because he was always a great sire, regardless. Better quality & greater quantity of mares would no doubt have greatly assisted a lesser horse than CC but he didn't need them in order to do well.

[peacheymagic]

Live or Die was my next choice Flashing Red he has produced several $100,000+ horses leaves colts and fillies and his service fee doesn't break the bank.

[trotpace]

Shadow Play
Santana Blue Chip
Artesian

[Shannon]

I like the first too mentioned. unproven tho but worth the gamble, and think to who they chased home that year. The mighty Somebeachsomewhere.

Shadow Play
Santana Blue Chip
Artesian