Can Drug Testing alone catch or stop DRUG cheats? - Richard Freedman on TripleM Radio

[Lethal]

Mark, we should go into business on a website with a link from here:

'CONSPIRACY THEORIES ONLINE' only $1 each
with a link to
'CONVOLUTED WORDS COMBINED' only $1 a sentence'

We wouldn't have any trouble identifying our TARGET MARKET.

Has to be a goer.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Jamie,
the steroids have been barred for about twenty years mate, I ,like everyone else used them as a training aid when they were legal, but as I said they haven't been for many,many years, so I reckon it's a bit of a stretch to say the guys are unlucky or anything like it, the horses were obviously at the very LEAST trained up on it, or maybe the Boldeneone was a small dose in conjuction with others??
The fact is both came up with positives for Boldenone, which has a threshold level only because it can be naturally occuring in entires.

On the animal welfare side to it Jamie, we who were using steroids years ago had no idea what we were doing to the horses long term, one of the main reasons steroids were barred was because of the long term detrimental side affects the horses would suffer down the track.

On that basis alone, I will never use them again for any reason, there are other ways to assist an animal to recover from injury or illness than to destroy its long term health.

Cheers,
Dan

Dan

I will stand corrected but this is this misunderstanding throughout this thread steroids are not banned, all this rubbish about out of competition testing finding substances and cheats is just not right.

Of all the swabs I can recall in the the last 4 years in NSW and there have been plenty I would say about 100 only 2 would have caused a problem with out of comp testing the EPO and Roy Roots jrn one.

Steroids are sweet to use under vet advice and plenty do and from the sates leading vets and if you and Mark do not like it tuf.

f I do not think it will ever change the vast majority of those positive swabs were TCO2....... bi carb because its cheap and effective ..out of competition test every horse in the state every week if you want will not get rid of bicarb or steroids because neither is banned out of competition and I doubt ever will be.

So called Drug free racing is a myth because we need therapeutic drugs to keep horses racing.

Example in nearly every jurisdiction in the world treatment for ulcers is allowed because so many horses suffer from them...EIPH (bleeding) is a far more common up to 95% in some studies and a bigger problem a drug treatment for this will eventually be permitted (no VVV not lasix well I hope not too tricky) but nevertheless a treatment.

By all means get rid of the cheats but please understand drugs and treatment of racing horses with them is needed to keep the industry alive.

Every positive swab is not someone deliberately cheating

[Triple V]

Mark, we should go into business on a website with a link from here:

'CONSPIRACY THEORIES ONLINE' only $1 each
with a link to
'CONVOLUTED WORDS COMBINED' only $1 a sentence'

We wouldn't have any trouble identifying our TARGET MARKET.

Has to be a goer.

[VVV] Lee, how can I even begin to reply to that?
Your Rapier-like wit has cut me to the bone.

[Thevoiceofreason]

[VVV] Lee, how can I even begin to reply to that?
Your Rapier-like wit has cut me to the bone.

The best bit is VVV unlike us poor plebs you can afford it.

[Danno]

G'day Bill,
I can be wrong...I just can't remember the last time it happened , my recollection of the banning of steroids was that the main reason was an animal welfare issue ( and I can attest to the truth in that, as I've witnessed a case or two).

Putting that aside, anyone using steroids on a horse in work is asking for a painful outcome as there is no guaranteed time frame for their leaving the horses system...sort of a russian roulette if you like and like it or not there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

Because whether it's tuf or not, the rules state none in the horses system when you are competing ( I honestly thought none fullstop and will check as best I can).

So mate it's not Mark and I making the rules, simply saying they are there for everbody and if you want to play russian roulette then do so knowing the consequences, because tuf or not Bill, if one horse is going around with steroids in his system and the others are not then he has an unfair and illegal advantage over the others...I'd call that cheating, you mate can call it what you like.
Cheers,
Dan

[Thevoiceofreason]

G'day Bill,
I can be wrong...I just can't remember the last time it happened , my recollection of the banning of steroids was that the main reason was an animal welfare issue ( and I can attest to the truth in that, as I've witnessed a case or two).

Putting that aside, anyone using steroids on a horse in work is asking for a painful outcome as there is no guaranteed time frame for their leaving the horses system...sort of a russian roulette if you like and like it or not there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

Because whether it's tuf or not, the rules state none in the horses system when you are competing ( I honestly thought none fullstop and will check as best I can).

So mate it's not Mark and I making the rules, simply saying they are there for everbody and if you want to play russian roulette then do so knowing the consequences, because tuf or not Bill, if one horse is going around with steroids in his system and the others are not then he has an unfair and illegal advantage over the others...I'd call that cheating, you mate can call it what you like.
Cheers,
Dan

Dan

No issue with any of that my point being the call for out of comp testing is a waste of money in the fight against steroid use and most of the positives in NSW.

[Triple V]

The best bit is VVV unlike us poor plebs you can afford it.

[VVV] A few weeks back there I found that I had dropped a fair old slab while I was crook with the Flu...around 10kg which came as a shock...but thanks to staffies after work (a pint or two of Guinness) I am putting it back on again. I'll be a fat bastard again before you know it.

[Triple V]

Putting that aside, anyone using steroids on a horse in work is asking for a painful outcome as there is no guaranteed time frame for their leaving the horses system...sort of a russian roulette if you like....

[VVV] G'day Dan,
If used recklessly or carelessly, yes but otherwise not so.
I am quite certain they are being & will continue to be widely used in both equine codes and right across the length & breadth of both AUS & NZ and that in the vast majority of instances they're used for well and truly above board, well intentioned purposes & in the vast majority of cases without issues as far as pre/post race testing is concerned.
There are a whole range of factors which would have a huge bearing on the outcome of a test. Depends on what sort of steroid is given, if it is an oil or water based one, how much of it is given, when & how often it is given and what the sex/physical state (as in gelded or not) of the horse in question happens to be. On the sex aspect, I hadn't really thought about them being used on fillies & mares however for obvious reasons I expect fillies and mares have a lower assigned threshold to the geldings & entires and that an overtly high testosterone level would stand out like the proverbial Dog's crackers.

[dizzy]

[VVV] I supect that's the very crux of it all Dan. Both of the horses that tested positive were Entires. I'd bet my Jatz Crackers that Boldenone and similar substances are being used as a post race recover aid with absolute impunity on the geldings of both racing codes throughout the country but because they are sans the aformentioned tackle they will duly go under the threshold when tested. It is no for no less complicated than that.

I'll call you on that bet VVV. I'll take your "Jatz crackers" delivered in a seeled, never to be opened container duly delivered by yourself to Bankstown. I nominate Mark, Lee, Dan or Jett to supervise their removal and installation into said container.

Do pray tell how geldings can be treated with Boldonone with impunity from testing when the threshold level in geldings is ZERO? Yes VVV thats right the threshold level for geldings for Boldonone is ZERO. Boldonone is a prohibited substance in geldings because as you point out they are sans the "tackle" that creates it naturally. The threshold quoted in the rules is for male horses other then geldings.

[Triple V]

I'll call you on that bet VVV. I'll take your "Jatz crackers" delivered in a seeled, never to be opened container duly delivered by yourself to Bankstown. I nominate Mark, Lee, Dan or Jett to supervise their removal and installation into said container.

Do pray tell how geldings can be treated with Boldonone with impunity from testing when the threshold level in geldings is ZERO? Yes VVV thats right the threshold level for geldings for Boldonone is ZERO. Boldonone is a prohibited substance in geldings because as you point out they are sans the "tackle" that creates it naturally. The threshold quoted in the rules is for male horses other then geldings.

[VVV] Yeh? At the risk of having to go & look around in the kitchen for a sealed container & in the garage for a nutting knife...that's contrary to my understanding of it all Dot.
If the testosterone threshold for entires is X...then what is it for/does it say about geldings & for that matter fillies & mares? If that's the case then by virtue of fillies and mares also naturally producing some testosterone of their own, they would have to be assigned a higher threshold than then geldings, would they not?
That doesn't make any sense.