dartmoor

[Flashing Red]

G'day Buster,

You're moving the goal posts around on me.
First it was new & previously undetectable drugs in the Frog Bike Rides and that travelling corrupt ridden sham known as the modern day Olympics, now it's old school 'the needy and the greedy' stuff like Bi-carb and EPO. Which is it?
If you had unlimited funds and relaibale access and if you really wanted to be a villain and sought to use something that would light them up that nobody has a test for...then I'm sure there are numerous options available other than old school stuff like EPO or easily detected Prehistoric acid buffers like Bicarb or stimulants like Caffiene or NSAID's like Bute etc etc.
The problem is that just like DVD Players or Wide Screen TV's initially such high tech options come at an extremely high/inflated price, and so in the case of our Industry one that is going to be largely unsustainable given the basic economics of the majority of Harness Racing in this country. No doubt the arse fell out of the black market EPO price when a conclusive test became available (& those tests have become increasingly cheaper over time) and things moved on to other areas.
For a good example, if you happen to read Medical & Scientific Journals & such you'll have noted the release of a whole new class of cardio vascular type drugs that come with aranesp like qualities. Their nature is such that a bankable test for it in equines will not become available at any time into the forseeable future, if at all.
These new drugs are the result of some rather wonderful research and a very different way of looking at and treating human ailments, one that does not have the risks associated with EPO and its derivitives/relatives/offspring. They are also so far out over the cutting edge of their own field...let alone that of the current testing regimes for equines...that they make virtually all other drugs previously in the cross hairs for use in such circumstances look like Cello Players in Marching Bands. As I said before, villainy and wrongdoing aside, I simply doubt that anyone has the access to nor do they have the considerable $$$ required to plonk down for such drugs to then turn around and use them on a horse with 5k stakes and the expectation of 10k on the Punt. That's not to say that someone, somewhere in the World is not doing so already, just that given the economic constraints of racing I very, very much doubt it is happening here.

I agree with the bolded.

[buster]

well what was happening with the royal flush team than? got a positive swab for exactly what you say isnt done

and ill say again bi carb is easily used by any simpleton and doesnt show a positive if your drench is given with the right timing

i dont personally know whats in the drenchs being supplied by the american but it obviously helps but has made a couple of horses recently very very sick

ps - i think the posts on the main harnesslink site show that im not the only one with the same issues with these stables

[Flashing Red]

and ill say again bi carb is easily used by any simpleton and doesnt show a positive if your drench is given with the right timing

On a side note, you can nip that in the bud with post race TC02 testing. Post race TC02 testing is sporadic here to say the least - yet when it is done, a la blitz style that some states employ for a few weeks, it stops a number of trainers in their tracks (and almost always ends up in a couple of positives). Why not do it all the time? In America they sometimes "specialed" you, which meant that 2 hours after the race your horse was tested again for the TC02 level. You never knew when you were going to be specialed (normally only winners, but sometimes others if their horses got beat as odds on pops, for example). It was a great way to nip bi-carbing in the bud. But in Australia we can't seem to get post race TC02 (and I mean extended post race, like 1.5-2 hours) in full and regular swing. Wish they would!!

[aussiebreno]

On a side note, you can nip that in the bud with post race TC02 testing. Post race TC02 testing is sporadic here to say the least - yet when it is done, a la blitz style that some states employ for a few weeks, it stops a number of trainers in their tracks (and almost always ends up in a couple of positives). Why not do it all the time? In America they sometimes "specialed" you, which meant that 2 hours after the race your horse was tested again for the TC02 level. You never knew when you were going to be specialed (normally only winners, but sometimes others if their horses got beat as odds on pops, for example). It was a great way to nip bi-carbing in the bud. But in Australia we can't seem to get post race TC02 (and I mean extended post race, like 1.5-2 hours) in full and regular swing. Wish they would!!

EDIT: Scratch that, things might get heated.

[buster]

they have done it a few times in sydney to specific stables, and after the breeders crown last year they did it to tonkin

[Flashing Red]

Later on you hint at knowledge of a new class of cardio drug that is undetectable with EPO like effects. So I guess you do alot of research and/or are well networked.
The statistics show that David Thorns stable has improved significantly. I guess that he's dramatically changed something?
I'm just trying to understand some of this.... Can we then say that with your relationship with David Thorn and understanding of new undetectable drugs then David Thorn could be using a new undetectable cardio drug with EPO like effects?

Thank you for being diplomatic.
But I disagree with the strategy of your attack. There are many online medical journals, for both humans and animals, even just horses, that run laboratory tests and publish their findings. They are not doing this to find an "edge" in racing. They are doing this for scientific research soley. You do not have to subscribe to the journal, you can purchase articles of interest online. A mere google search can find new drugs that the Olympic committee are testing for. Indeed, did not Harnesslink publish an article on 2 used but currently not tested for drugs in Canada/America? Triplev's comments cannot be construed as "inside" information - what he re-iterated in his post is pretty much easily confirmed online. Maybe not in relation to horses, but to human athletes. It does not require one to be well researched OR closely connected to a stable.

EDIT - this is my last post on this thread. Its contents are making me really uncomfortable.

[justdoit]

Hi Flashing Red,
You unlike most of us are standing directly in front of someone and letting them know that you are going to punch them in the face, we(un-named)are more the king hit from behind type of people
A very touchy subject.

[triplev123]

Originally Posted by racefair
Later on you hint at knowledge of a new class of cardio drug that is undetectable with EPO like effects. So I guess you do alot of research and/or are well networked.
The statistics show that David Thorns stable has improved significantly. I guess that he's dramatically changed something?
I'm just trying to understand some of this.... Can we then say that with your relationship with David Thorn and understanding of new undetectable drugs then David Thorn could be using a new undetectable cardio drug with EPO like effects?
--------------------------------

No, you're not trying to understand some of this at all. Can we then say...indeed. Cheap shot. Cheap, cheap shot. You should be ashamed of yourself for inferring such things about David Thorn and also about myself. I'd have thought you were old enough to know better. Obviously not.

[triplev123]

Buster, by way of taking a lead from Flashing this will be my last post to this thread...but not before I state a few facts.

Comments thus far by yourself have indicated to me that you do not have a particularly good understanding of that which you are banging on about, that which you initially sought to hang David Thorn for. I've started off by explaining to you why I thought Dartmoor raced the way he did the other day and you've stuck to your guns and ignored that, ignoring the obvious back class the horse has combined with him being placed to significant advantage as being the reason for his efforts at his last two starts and specially so his recent win. I thought you were a Punter? A student of horses and of form?

You've then continued the initial inference of wrongdoing by posting...quote “if they have only just started testing for a several drugs in the tour de france and olympics, what hope has the horse labs of testing for them” end quote.............. to which I replied that even if you placed the wrongdoing aspect of it all aside, the economics and ease of access aspects of it all make it simply impossible.

You then replied quote “whats the most expensive performance enhancing drug around? epo, already had positive swabs to it and probably more if it didnt cost so much to test for bicarb is obviously the cheapest most effective and your allowed to have it, very handy stuff if you get the timing right”...to which I replied by explaining to you why EPO and Bi-Card are so old school as to be non factors as undetectable enhancements.

Undaunted you've commented...quote “well what was happening with the royal flush team than? got a positive swab for exactly what you say isnt done” which is where your comprehension of what was written/typed has failed you. That incident was back in May & June of 2009 if memory serves me correctly, some 18months ago (?) and I did not say it wasn’t being done now, I said that given how easily detectable EPO has become that it was being done by the needy and the greedy and that those seeking an edge had long ago moved on. Christ, the ORC were testing for EPO back in early 2008. Things have moved on. It's like an HQ Holden being compared to a current model Statesman. On that score, for your own edification when you get a chance Buster, google substances such as Aranesp & Mircera and have a read about them and their qualities.
Consider development wise how far down the line they are from the original EPO...then take a mental leap ahead from there and that’ll just about clear the cutting edge in that field. The amount of $$$$ being poured into this & related fields in response to Human Kidney & Heart disease, Cancer treatments and so on is just incredible and as I alluded to when outlining that new class drugs I mentioned before, They are also so far out over the cutting edge of their own field...let alone that of the current testing regimes for equines...that they make virtually all other drugs previously in the cross hairs for use in such circumstances look like Cello Players in Marching Bands.

Then you’ve followed up the above with quote " and ill say again bi carb is easily used by any simpleton and doesnt show a positive if your drench is given with the right timing" end quote. Now whilst holding a modicum of truth by way of referencing timing (given there is not a standing post race TC02 testing regime in place, something which Flashing has also quite rightly pointed out) nevertheless shows a lack of knowledge of the subject because said ‘right timing’ is not a feat that is to be left to the application abilities of a simpleton. Over the years I’ve seen some very savvy Vets and well clued in Trainers get caught out badly when messing around with such things.
For a variety of reasons anyone who saw fit to routinely use bi-card drenches would have to be extremely clever in their application & be extremely lucky with their timing and with the possible adverse influences exerted on their horses by both internal and external factors in order for them to get away with such behaviour over an extended period of time with a lot of horses.

Buster, I've gone over it and over it and over it again and again and again and looked at it from dozens and dozens of different angles and while it would be foolish of anyone to believe that there is no chemical enhancement occurring in racing I would still be prepared to stand in the Dock and swear upon a stack of Bibles that it is being emploted to nowhere near the levels that the trackside scuttlebutt would have us believe. Nowhere near it.
Further to this and by of explaining the ever present allegations aimed at one stable or another, I don't think many people fully appreciate just how many horsemen/horsewomen there are out there that could not train a rampant Choko Vine to grow over the top of an out-door dunny. That some horses can & do improve & that some will improve dramatically given a change of stable, of their feeding, training & racing regimes probably should not come as a big a surprise to some as it currently does. Such improvements are not automatically assignable to nefarious behaviour.

Here ends today’s sermon, once and for all.

[buster]

i didnt read most of that post, but i thought you knew enough about the industry to know what goes on behind closed doors