Why are people walking away from harness racing?

[djgood]

Yeah but this is not new when miss in Majorca was a maiden the conditions for the races changed regularly to get full fields ,it's my turn to take advantage,and thats what Shane Tritton does well he uses the handicapping system very good and to his and his owners advantage

[djgood]

Yes I bet Joe Sultana is over the moon

Joe will be ok top bloke we always chat at the trots

[Mighty Atom]

Yeah but this is not new when miss in Majorca was a maiden the conditions for the races changed regularly to get full fields ,it's my turn to take advantage,and thats what Shane Tritton does well he uses the handicapping system very good and to his and his owners advantage

Hi David,
Don't think the handicapping system applied with Mark Dennis.......unbelievable, even Gareth Hall was perplexed.

[Boydy]

Firstly just to clarify as there has been some misunderstanding with my comments on 4 second improvement on social media. I was not suggesting that Sofoulis suggested this and I was referring to comments made by others that were made on FB that I was involved in a conversation. I think the two Adams are both on the same wavelength.
Mitch I understand that everybody has a different opinion on the handicapping system but there are some facts that cannot be denied. Firstly, if you have a horse of limited ability then your earning potential is reduced by the new system. Under the old system, if you placed your horse right you could win a couple of R races and then a couple of C races and by the time you are a C2 you would have won races worth $16k. Under the new system that is $8-$9k. It does not make a lot of sense to me to reduce a level of racing and also reduce the prizemoney for the next class up. If a C0 was worth $8k minimum well we would probably be having a different argument.
Also your thoughts that owners are primarily in the game to make money in my opinion is just plain wrong. I have probably owned around 15 horses in the last 10 years and I do not think 1 has ever returned what I paid, plus covered the training fees. It would be nice but I am not holding my breath. However to think that owners/trainers do not move horses on to other areas when they are uncompetitive in their current location is just plain wrong and if you have a look at the fields in Queensland on a daily basis you will see this. The thing is that most of the time when you move a horse on it allows you replace it with another its the way it has always worked.
The truth is HRNSW has always had the ability to grade horses in a manner to make them competitive. The R0 and better races accepted noms and the handicappers framed their own races, making them less than $300 last 4 starts etc. From what I can see I think the handicappers are doing very much the same that they always did but my major issue is the demise of Restricted races and no increase or even a decrease in the Country races.
On another note just so you can see where NSW racing is headed Friday meetings at Albion Park have C races worth $6000 down to C0s and out of that you do not pay a drivers fee so in reality its worth $6660 in comparison to NSW.
Rod, on Mark Dennis. Gareth went on about claimed last start. No wonder he was perplexed he was just plain wrong. The horse only got beat 10 metres in the SA Cup in January and was competitive and beat Come on Frank a number of times. If Come on Frank would have done this after walking the first 1500 metres would have been no surprise.

[NormanS]

Firstly just to clarify as there has been some misunderstanding with my comments on 4 second improvement on social media. I was not suggesting that Sofoulis suggested this and I was referring to comments made by others that were made on FB that I was involved in a conversation. I think the two Adams are both on the same wavelength.

To both Sofoulis and Boydy – . To be fair to Shane, he is probably one of the most scrutinised trainers in NSW simply because of the volume of horses that he puts onto the race track. I’ve known Shane for years and KNOW that he is a very smart man and he has developed a training style that works for the horses that he presents to the races. It is reasonable to assume that there are many horses that don’t respond to his training style and these horses are either given time in the paddock or moved on. I also understand that the owners that support him have spent significant money purchasing better and better horses as his training skills have born better and better results.
The reason for my original post was having done the form before the race where many of the horses names were familiar to me, I expected the Our Orville NZ to be thereabouts in a tight finish (maybe I was influenced by the race conditions). I did the form again after the race and then watched the race replays because on face value the form didn’t appear to stack up. Add the short turn around (not much time to train and it is Shanes training methods and the driving methods employed that have been most influential) and hence perception of a significant improvement (not just the time run but the way it was run) that had me questioning why the original stewards notes (on the results page) didn’t query the improvement. The question has now been asked and answered.

Also your thoughts that owners are primarily in the game to make money in my opinion is just plain wrong

Have to agree here. Making money would be great but just wanting to cover ongoing costs.
With respect to the current handicapping system - after listening to the interview on trots tv I understand why they're "trying" this. I'm just not sure that I agree with it. I would still like my trainer to have the ability to place my horse where he/she thinks it has the best chance of winning.
As the system evolves the better trainers will work this out. However if HRNSW are able to show that this method of field selection does create more competitive, less predictable racing with fewer odds-on favourites AND increases betting turnover then I think we have to let them go with it. Once again however the system will need to evolve to suit all racing, not just Menangle.
On the "sliding scale for prize money" v "R" and "C" racing, I'll have to ponder this one a little longer (especially if fields are going to be framed around times run and $'s last X starts).

[Triple V]

Our National & State Industry desk pilots grow some Cajones & throw the entire R0-C0-M0 routine to the shithouse instead of retaining that rubbish framework, grafting onto it a series of taken completely out of context successful aspects of Nth American Harness Racing and passing off the resultant & inevitably dysfunctional Bastard child as 'Handicapping Reform'.
Instead we need to move to a FULL CONDITIONED RACING SYSTEM with everything that it entails.
If we do not then Southern Harness Racing is, IMO, doomed to wander aimlessly, mindlessly repeating the same old Handicap horses on their historical form bullshit mistakes, and all the while inexplicably expecting a different outcome.

[Mitch]

Firstly just to clarify as there has been some misunderstanding with my comments on 4 second improvement on social media. I was not suggesting that Sofoulis suggested this and I was referring to comments made by others that were made on FB that I was involved in a conversation. I think the two Adams are both on the same wavelength.
Mitch I understand that everybody has a different opinion on the handicapping system but there are some facts that cannot be denied. Firstly, if you have a horse of limited ability then your earning potential is reduced by the new system. Under the old system, if you placed your horse right you could win a couple of R races and then a couple of C races and by the time you are a C2 you would have won races worth $16k. Under the new system that is $8-$9k. It does not make a lot of sense to me to reduce a level of racing and also reduce the prizemoney for the next class up. If a C0 was worth $8k minimum well we would probably be having a different argument.
Also your thoughts that owners are primarily in the game to make money in my opinion is just plain wrong. I have probably owned around 15 horses in the last 10 years and I do not think 1 has ever returned what I paid, plus covered the training fees. It would be nice but I am not holding my breath. However to think that owners/trainers do not move horses on to other areas when they are uncompetitive in their current location is just plain wrong and if you have a look at the fields in Queensland on a daily basis you will see this. The thing is that most of the time when you move a horse on it allows you replace it with another its the way it has always worked.
The truth is HRNSW has always had the ability to grade horses in a manner to make them competitive. The R0 and better races accepted noms and the handicappers framed their own races, making them less than $300 last 4 starts etc. From what I can see I think the handicappers are doing very much the same that they always did but my major issue is the demise of Restricted races and no increase or even a decrease in the Country races.
On another note just so you can see where NSW racing is headed Friday meetings at Albion Park have C races worth $6000 down to C0s and out of that you do not pay a drivers fee so in reality its worth $6660 in comparison to NSW.
Rod, on Mark Dennis. Gareth went on about claimed last start. No wonder he was perplexed he was just plain wrong. The horse only got beat 10 metres in the SA Cup in January and was competitive and beat Come on Frank a number of times. If Come on Frank would have done this after walking the first 1500 metres would have been no surprise.

Hi Adam,

I think you have misread or misinterpreted my post.

Just to be clear;

I didn't at any stage say the new system was perfect. I was trying to make a point that people need to give it time rather than make outlandish comments, like you did, that the new handicapping system is a blight on the industry. As I said in my post there are things I don't like about it but I am happy to give it time and put aside my personal preferences.

I also never said owners were in the sport to make money, not sure where you got that from?? I did say that I think the majority aim to race their horse for as long as it competitive.

I agree that a lot of smart owners do move their horses on to other states or zones once they are no longer competitive.

Mitch.

[Triple V]

You must be kidding Triple V. Don't look up Yonkers or any other racetrack look up Empire City Casino.
I have it from good authority that on a recent meeting staged there was an even spread of fields (as in no odds on favourites) and turnover was down on that venue. Why? Because even thought the win pools were up, exotic betting was down.
Triple V, the day comes that the crowd watch the races on TV while they play the pokies I will give the sport away but maybe you think that is success, maybe you should breed a couple of plastic horses for Trackside.

VVV- Of course. It's infinitely better to Handicap our horses based on their historical form & ultimately force them out through the top by way of them reaching their mark and becoming economically unviable. Makes a lot of sense. Go straight to the top of the class.

[Messenger]

Hey Jamie (and Adam) let's keep it nice and debate it without getting too emotive

[The Form Student]

I don't know why they ever got rid of a maiden as a C28 class?