The ASBP Report: How can they be serious? Bad news for harness owners

[The Big Mile]

Hey TBM,

When you write...
FACT: Australian breeders produce a lot of rubbish.

and then...
FACT: The Import Fee attacks the bottom end of the food chain in terms of NZ purchases. The cheapest point of entry (meaning cheapest horses) are the ones hurt the most.

[VVV] Those points are contradictory because, while I agree wholeheartedly with you in regard to the entry point aspect, the cheapest horses...the entry points...are those which are considered to be the rubbish in NZ.
You can't on one hand come out and berate Oz breeders for producing horses that you don't think are up to standard (QUOTE- Australian breeders produce a lot of rubbish), turn around and shop at Crazy Prices or Chicken Feed for your going concerns in NZ ...then hold those prices up as the yardstick to which Oz Breeders should be selling their yearlings /going horses at.
If Australian Breeders produce so much rubbish, have a look at the last 10 years worth of 2yo & 3yo $ earners here in Oz and make note the % of NZ bred imports that have been able to earn anything like their Oz bred counterparts.

Hooked him. You are confusing yourself there VVV.

I said Australian breeders breed a lot of rubbish. You will see if you trawl through other posts that I put it hand in hand with the kinds of mares that they produce with. You conveniently forgot to tie that in but thats ok.

The lower end of the food chain in NZ is purely on expense, it doesn't mean they are badly bred horses and so forth. And by the lower end maybe I should have been more specific - up to $20k NZ (so say rougly $16k australian).

Have a look at the sales catalogue VVV. you are an experienced pedigree man. How many pages -and there are hundreds - where you wouldn't and dont get a bid.

Why so many buybacks at sales?

Outside of that when you look at the Breeders whom breed to race, why is it not economically viable for them to keep going?

[aussiebreno]

Gee Aussiebreno. You had me fooled as I thought you would have been an owner and breeder. You said yourself you are neither.

Would hate to see how involved you got in discussion once you actually dip your toe in the water and speak from experience.

It will be carnage.

I'll probably be saying up the import fee to $10000 and make the breeders percentage to 20% of the prizemoney and call for studs to halve service fees! It is much easier to make logical, rational discussion when you are unattatched and emotionless (you know, like outside reviews they have of footy clubs or business's etc). There's been a couple threads on this forum where I have just as big as an opinion but because it is closer to home I have mellowed my response or not posted in thread at all. And vice versa a couple in hindsight I've been wrong but went over the top!!!

[The Big Mile]

Can I also add:

93% of breeders breed to race. (wasn't it 79%? ) Well it was one of those figures.

If they breed to race, then the expectations they surely must have as owners (which they become once on the track) are exactly the same as all other owners?

That is, they don't expect to finish in front when investing in a racehorse.

I cannot see why there is differentiation. So that 79% or 93% must have the expectation that they will come out behind.

So this whole process is about making up the shortfall.

We are starting to skate into dangerous grounds............

[The Big Mile]

I'll probably be saying up the import fee to $10000 and make the breeders percentage to 20% of the prizemoney and call for studs to halve service fees! It is much easier to make logical, rational discussion when you are unattatched and emotionless (you know, like outside reviews they have of footy clubs or business's etc). There's been a couple threads on this forum where I have just as big as an opinion but because it is closer to home I have mellowed my response or not posted in thread at all. And vice versa a couple in hindsight I've been wrong but went over the top!!!

Aussie fair enough. There isn't any sport that sees vested interest pushed to the forefront like harness racing. It is disgusting how it stifles the sport. Outside views can often be a great leveller.

I am sure many that read this forum think I am a bloodstock agent. Well I can dispel that theory but even people whom have exactly the same involvement as say I or you, can have polar opposite views.

The thing is if more came to light about this entire thread and the machanations behind it all, the revelations will disgust you and many others.

[justdoit]

"The thing is if more came to light about this entire thread and the machanations behind it all, the revelations will disgust you and many others."

Do tell us please.

[triplev123]

[QUOTE=The Big Mile;8474]Hooked him. You are confusing yourself there VVV.
[VVV] Might have confused yourself there TBM. That was no early spring Mulloway. It was a lump of Kelp.

I said Australian breeders breed a lot of rubbish. You will see if you trawl through other posts that I put it hand in hand with the kinds of mares that they produce with. You conveniently forgot to tie that in but thats ok.
[VVV] There are no such mare/sire combinations anywhere in NZ then?

The lower end of the food chain in NZ is purely on expense, it doesn't mean they are badly bred horses and so forth. And by the lower end maybe I should have been more specific - up to $20k NZ (so say rougly $16k australian).
[VVV] Depends solely on what you view as being badly bred.
It's a very widely encompassing term. The lower end of the going horse food chain is by & large populated by horses that are the progeny of a swag of sires who are, for various reasons, either no longer or otherwise never were...commercial. Artiscape, Julius Caesar, Red River Hanover, P Forty Seven, Pacific Rocket, Presidential Ball, Big Tom, Barnett Hanover, Peruvian Hanover, Man Around Town etc. This list goes on & on.
That doesn't neccessarily preclude any one or more of them from producing a going horse that can be competitive. Once they have proven they can pace a certain trip that is their value, not their parentage.

Have a look at the sales catalogue VVV. you are an experienced pedigree man. How many pages -and there are hundreds - where you wouldn't and dont get a bid.
[VVV] See above. If you were to somehow be able to turn back the clock and put many of these going concerns into the sale ring as yearlings I can guarentee you they'd join the no bid ranks.

Why so many buybacks at sales?
[VVV] Here in Australia the vast majority of thebreeders are also racing owners. That has been very cleary established in this most recent paper.
If they go to the sales & don't get a price they deem to be reasonable...especially so with fillies, then more often than not they're quite prepared to race them themselves. Buybacks at Sales is not a specifically Oz phenomenon by the way. Check out the NZ Sales. It is little different in that respect...only their buybacks tend to end up being more of a break in, get them up going and if their future is deemed to be in the handy/moderate/marginal area under the NZ handicapping system...then aim to sell them off to Oz venture.

Outside of that when you look at the Breeders whom breed to race, why is it not economically viable for them to keep going?
[VVV] The breed to race crew? Well, I honestly don't believe that to be the case.
This report, as current as it is, IMO is already out of date as far as the financials of that particular exercise (breed to race) is concerned. I say that because, in the period that ensued from the time submissions were called for until the present, the prizemoney has lifted a fair cog at Menangle & it will soon do so again as well across the State for that matter. It is fast approaching the point of never having been more economically viable to race a horse in NSW...and this will become even more so of a fact in the coming years.

[justdoit]

"The thing is if more came to light about this entire thread and the machanations behind it all, the revelations will disgust you and many others."

Waiting to be disgusted...............................waiting... .............................waiting.............. .................................
Don't tell us that a member of the breeding Panel was posting on this very topic, answering questions and giving us the facts so this topic could continue without people being mislead???
I will be disgusted

[triplev123]

Triple V -
I haven't read this whole thread, but the reason why at this stage I would prefer to breed to American sires is because I think, simply, they are still better. I'm not illusioned by 1:47 miles - but what the top horses could do over there, I don't think ours could match it. I mean if Shark Gesture raced her 12 months ago IMHO none of our Grand Circuit horses would have seen where he went. I think Rocknroll Heaven would have made a mess of our Grand Circuit horses too. I think the gap between the Southern and Northern Hemisphere is closing, rapidly, but the gap isn't closed yet.

At the top of his game Shark Gesture would have blitzed everything comparable that was down here at that point in time, no question, as would have Rocknroll Heaven, however the relative worth aspect of their sires vs ours is more a function of numbers than anything else Flashing.
Here in Oz & over in NZ superstars do come along that could've matched it with anything that the Northern Hemisphere has to offer...a horse like Christian Cullen could have gone with anything I've seen, anywhere...as for that matter would have Courage Under Fire...but because we breed fewer foals such horses just don't come along in every single crop or in nearly every single crop the way they do in the US/CAN. Instead here they'll turn up at a far lesser rate of twice or three times in a decade.
Adding to that, and I keep harking back to the comment made to me at the NSW Breeders Challenge Finals by a well known NSW Breeder, ...there is currently no Big $/ High Profile/ Classic / Group 1 race for 3yo colts over the mile in this country that, should such a horse or horses come this way again, would allow them to fully showcase their wares. That's the single biggest impediment we face as far as breeding our own sires is concerned.
I agree that the gap hasn't fully closed yet but a large part of it is current perception & the implementation of such a race would serve narrow it considerably.

[triplev123]

Just to underline what I'm getting at and in addition to #146...

At Menangle today there are three or four NZ bred horses in to go by the likes of Pacific Rocket, Artiscape & Red River Hanover. At Menangle again on Saturday night there are nine or ten NZ bred horses in to go by the likes of Julius Caesar, Fully Loaded, Thunder N Lightning, Partywiththebigdog, Pacific Rocket, Lislea & Union Guy. As good as these horses have been, a number of them have paced very quick miles & earned plenty of $$$, I very much doubt there are too many/any commercial come yearling sales breeders anywhere in NZ or AUS that are sending mares the wayof their respective sires.

[aussiebreno]

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