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Thread: A Case For Full Siblings or Not?

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    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    A Case For Full Siblings or Not?

    A thoroughbred article from Bloodhorse back in 2014

    https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...#disqus_thread

    Some snippets

    In truth, of course, the odds are stacked against a good runner being duplicated by a sibling. On average, full siblings share just 50% of their genes, meaning that siblings can vary widely in genetic potential. Add to this the influence of environmental factors—training, nutrition, general handling, early experiences, and so on—and it’s easy to see why more full siblings to good horses fail than make names for themselves.

    Still, common sense would indicate that full siblings to a good horse have a better chance of being good runners themselves than half siblings, all other factors being equal and the respective sires being of roughly equal merit. As a test of this hypothesis, consider the produce records of the dams of horses named Horse of the Year

    There were 434 half siblings to champions in the studied group. But if these results are any indication, perhaps breeders should have tried repeat matings more often. Of the half siblings, 261 (60.1%) won and 59 (13.6%) became stakes winners. But the [120] full siblings yielded 79 winners (65.8%) and 28 stakes winners (23.3%).


    It should be noted that 120 and 434 are smallish sample sizes

    I found this Comment on the article food for thought:

    Even though the odds of getting a stakes horse are somewhat increased with full siblings I wonder if there is really an adequate return on investment if you are buying one of the full siblings rather than just breeding? The yearlings would sell for so much more than they would without a big name sibling, and I guess that's as much a reason for repeating the breeding as any - big money at the sales
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    Senior Member Horse Of The Year gutwagon will become famous soon enough gutwagon's Avatar
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    I've always been of the opinion that full siblings are only good for increasing the price at the yearling sales.
    Don't die wondering !

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    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    I am undertaking a bit of research on it Rick but it may take a year or more - that is why you may have noticed my posts about the shortcoming of HRA's records
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    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Adaptor will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutwagon View Post
    I've always been of the opinion that full siblings are only good for increasing the price at the yearling sales.


    There are a good number of full brothers/sisters that have made significant contributions on the track or in the breeding barn.

    Early examples are the three full brothers GREAT BINGEN (1919)/PETER BINGEN (1920)/WORTHY BINGEN (1917) – each by Nelson Bingen from Berthabell.


    New Zealand's Peter Craig put together a 4 part series Brothers In Arms on Harnessbred.com in 2017 to demonstrate many that were effective.

    The link, kindly sent by Peter is here: http://www.harnessbred.com/?s=Brothers+In+Arms

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    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    That looks like it will be VERY interesting - thanks again Noel
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    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Adaptor will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    That looks like it will be VERY interesting - thanks again Noel
    Using Classic Familes, looking at sires and sorting the dams column alphabetically, it is easy to find examples of full brothers/sisters that were very good.

    Examples ( it took just a few minutes to locate these) include:

    FOUR OF THEM:
    Admiral, General, Brigadier and Major Bronski, all by Art Major from the Fake Left mare Bronski Gorgeous

    THREE
    Gyro, Gyration and Sperry all by Meadow Vance from Argent

    Peter Scott and Foidale Scott and their sister Foi MacTavish by Noble Scott from Foidale


    Bar Adios, Express Adios and Zaruma, by Dick Adios from Romantic Express

    Millionaire Brothers:

    Feel Like A Fool and Fool Me Once by Art Major from Fool THat I Am by Jennas Beach Boy

    Hi Ho Silverheels and Stinglikabee by Walton Hanover from Armbro Caprice

    and countless pairs:

    Bondi Tramcar and The Chief Accountant by Kentucky from Convincing
    Last edited by Adaptor; 05-13-2022 at 01:26 PM.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    I hope to do a fairly large sample study
    As well as finding many pairs, the question is whether you find more pairs that are successful or not.
    I am not talking about just good horses but good progeny that prompted a repeat mating and whether it was justified/successful

    I don't think there is any doubt that you are much more likely to produce a successful foal from a mare that has proven herself in the barn and a sire that has proven himself ( a principal I believe in and which I believe was first preached by Joe Estes 85yrs ago)
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  8. #8
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Looking at your way of doing it is quite brilliant Noel (I may ditch mine)

    The drawback is that just because Classic has a pair, doesn't mean that there weren't more than 2 full siblings, or others that had a pair but the sibling did not qualify to be included in Classics db
    So still looking at a lot of HRA searches

    Due to cost of O/S searches would probably have to restrict it to NZ and Aus horses
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