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Thread: This is long overdue.

  1. #11
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year broncobrad has a spectacular aura about
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    IMO the prizemoney increases are a Godsend for the industry in NSW. The poor old trainer is on the job 26 hrs a day (if you include the sleepless nights) and deserves every cent plus more. I thought the announcement might have been premature but its out there now. No matter how much the prizemoney increases tho', there will always be someone after the quick or easy buck, sad part of human nature. But while the bigger bucks are available there will be more participants chasing them. Has there been any announcements on funding increases for swabbing?

  2. #12
    Senior Member 4YO Thevoiceofreason has a spectacular aura about
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    Away from any comment on the corruption issue I think this is a good move because it really benefits everyone.

    There was a point put forward that trainers could increase their training fees, whilst this is true it does not help the owner who has a slow horse that is not earning prizemoney and it will only drive him further from the industry quicker.

    An increase in trainers percentages has no effect on an owner trainer because he gets it all anyway, if it keeps a professional trainer with better cash flow and higher returns then he may be able to keep his training fees at a lower level.

    Harness trainers in NSW have trained horses at a very reasonable cost structure for many years when you compare it to their gallop counterparts, when you consider base costs such as feed and transport are exactly the same it has been a huge effort, I see this move as another great step forward in keeping professional trainers in the industry and therefore also benefiting owners by giving them a greater choice of trainers at a reasonable cost structure.

    Congratulations to HRNSW yet again.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    The way I see things....it's infinitely easier to co-opt someone when they're eating the paint off the walls & don't have enough $ in their pocket to fill up their car, let alone take their girlfriend out for dinner every once in a while.
    As disturbing and unpalatable as it might be for some people to read, if what I've been told is accurate and I've no reason to doubt it at all, it was not so very long ago that the services of a few impressionable young up & coming participants were initially secured for little more than the price of a meal at a Chinese Restaurant.
    That's how it all starts off. "Geeze, isn't old mate such a nice bloke, he asked us along, paid for dinner"...etc etc etc. Next thing, ring ring, ring ring "Hey, it's old mate here, yeh, we had Chinese the other night, I was wondering...you know that horse you're driving in Race 3....."
    I'm not in the least bit surprised that those blokes did what they did/do what they do either because the gates were well & truly left wide open & the dinner bell was ringing. To them it is nothing personal, it's just the way they put food on the table.
    In a great many respects the Industry itself, from top to bottom, played an admittedly unwitting though nonetheless responsible hand in that sort of thing ultimately coming to pass. Those quick buck boys are always around & they were essentially left free to pray upon a whole host of people, especially so youngsters with very little or no guidance/mentoring, and also those who had begun to see little or no career path & who, for their efforts, had earned little or no money.
    One well known participant in particular, I know for a fact he had long been calling for (some 4-5 years prior to July/August 2011) a mentoring process to be put in place for young drivers for example. To my knowledge nothing ever happened save the idea time and again being given the usual lip service/the mirror routine..."Yeh, that's a good idea...we'll look into that".
    I can't help but be left with the feeling that a large slice of what has come to pass in recent times could have been greatly diminished/all but avoided, had the Industry's head been a little less jammed up its own clacker & its financial circumstances different. It doesn't excuse their behaviour of course...some had more than enough kanga on hand prior to embarking on their dodgy excursions... but for a numer of the smaller but nonetheless vital bit players, I feel it does go some way towards explaining it.

    In an attempt to offset much of the above, HRNSW spreading the $ around and putting a bit of the folding stuff in a lot of people's pockets & showing them, especially so the younger brigade, a genuine career path...one that leads beyond what sort of stunt is going to be pulled this week or next week...is going to help no end. As naive as it may seem...I believe that given the opportunity, most people will inherently do the right thing.
    You'll never stop them all of course, for some it wouldn't matter if we were racing week in week out to win City blocks, they would still be a smarty & try to subvert it to their benefit, but by and large if there's more $ going around then it makes the task of those people who'd do seek to do the wrong thing a whole lot harder.
    Last edited by Triple V; 04-27-2012 at 06:46 PM. Reason: poor sentence construction

  4. #14
    Member Gelding The Rainmaker will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thevoiceofreason View Post
    Away from any comment on the corruption issue I think this is a good move because it really benefits everyone.

    There was a point put forward that trainers could increase their training fees, whilst this is true it does not help the owner who has a slow horse that is not earning prizemoney and it will only drive him further from the industry quicker.

    An increase in trainers percentages has no effect on an owner trainer because he gets it all anyway, if it keeps a professional trainer with better cash flow and higher returns then he may be able to keep his training fees at a lower level.

    Harness trainers in NSW have trained horses at a very reasonable cost structure for many years when you compare it to their gallop counterparts, when you consider base costs such as feed and transport are exactly the same it has been a huge effort, I see this move as another great step forward in keeping professional trainers in the industry and therefore also benefiting owners by giving them a greater choice of trainers at a reasonable cost structure.

    Congratulations to HRNSW yet again.

    Some good points in that post. However I think HRNSW might have been abit quick off the mark to raise the trainers % until they have told all industry participants what they plan to do with all the extra income after the race fields legislation was validated.

    HRNSW are apparently doing some 'road shows' around different venues across the state to discuss the new windfall and how to spend it. In comparison, within 2 days of the High Court decision Racing NSW issued a release that all Country NSW race meetings would have a minimum purse of 10k per race, midweek City 30k per race etc. It seems as though HRNSW wants to raise the thought of some other ideas but priority number one should be prizemoney.

    90% of horses out there are useless and make no return let alone profit, there is no doubt about that. And with a recent drivers pay increase funded by the owner, now trainers percentage increase, poor yearling sale numbers and owners leaving the sport in NSW due to the widespread corruption which surfaced last year, I just hope HRNSW come through with the goods for the owners. Less owners = less trainers = less drivers.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by The Rainmaker View Post
    Some good points in that post. However I think HRNSW might have been abit quick off the mark to raise the trainers % until they have told all industry participants what they plan to do with all the extra income after the race fields legislation was validated.

    HRNSW are apparently doing some 'road shows' around different venues across the state to discuss the new windfall and how to spend it. In comparison, within 2 days of the High Court decision Racing NSW issued a release that all Country NSW race meetings would have a minimum purse of 10k per race, midweek City 30k per race etc. It seems as though HRNSW wants to raise the thought of some other ideas but priority number one should be prizemoney.
    Here here Eric, most people think the same mate but there are always some people who care more about themselves than the game. And they would be the people lobbying this bullshit about giving trainers more so trainers stay in the game...the point you made is VERY VALID no owners=no trainers=no drivers=no breeders=no HR admin positions= no bloody game for anybody.
    If you make the game attractive to owners, the game gets stronger for everyone.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple V View Post
    The way I see things....it's infinitely easier to co-opt someone when they're eating the paint off the walls & don't have enough $ in their pocket to fill up their car, let alone take their girlfriend out for dinner every once in a while.
    As disturbing and unpalatable as it might be for some people to read, if what I've been told is accurate and I've no reason to doubt it at all, it was not so very long ago that the services of a few impressionable young up & coming participants were initially secured for little more than the price of a meal at a Chinese Restaurant.
    That's how it all starts off. "Geeze, isn't old mate such a nice bloke, he asked us along, paid for dinner"...etc etc etc. Next thing, ring ring, ring ring "Hey, it's old mate here, yeh, we had Chinese the other night, I was wondering...you know that horse you're driving in Race 3....."
    I'm not in the least bit surprised that those blokes did what they did/do what they do either because the gates were well & truly left wide open & the dinner bell was ringing. To them it is nothing personal, it's just the way they put food on the table.
    In a great many respects the Industry itself, from top to bottom, played an admittedly unwitting though nonetheless responsible hand in that sort of thing ultimately coming to pass. Those quick buck boys are always around & they were essentially left free to pray upon a whole host of people, especially so youngsters with very little or no guidance/mentoring, and also those who had begun to see little or no career path & who, for their efforts, had earned little or no money.
    One well known participant in particular, I know for a fact he had long been calling for (some 4-5 years prior to July/August 2011) a mentoring process to be put in place for young drivers for example. To my knowledge nothing ever happened save the idea time and again being given the usual lip service/the mirror routine..."Yeh, that's a good idea...we'll look into that".
    I can't help but be left with the feeling that a large slice of what has come to pass in recent times could have been greatly diminished/all but avoided, had the Industry's head been a little less jammed up its own clacker & its financial circumstances different. It doesn't excuse their behaviour of course...some had more than enough kanga on hand prior to embarking on their dodgy excursions... but for a numer of the smaller but nonetheless vital bit players, I feel it does go some way towards explaining it.

    In an attempt to offset much of the above, HRNSW spreading the $ around and putting a bit of the folding stuff in a lot of people's pockets & showing them, especially so the younger brigade, a genuine career path...one that leads beyond what sort of stunt is going to be pulled this week or next week...is going to help no end. As naive as it may seem...I believe that given the opportunity, most people will inherently do the right thing.
    You'll never stop them all of course, for some it wouldn't matter if we were racing week in week out to win City blocks, they would still be a smarty & try to subvert it to their benefit, but by and large if there's more $ going around then it makes the task of those people who'd do seek to do the wrong thing a whole lot harder.
    Like everyone Jamie, your entitled to your opinion, but gee mate two of the guys currently under police charges come from very successfull long term industry families who had every chance to walk a straight line but it appears "chose" another.
    No mentoring program was gunna change what these guys allegedly did, they had great mentors already!

    HRNSW are trying to do good things no doubt, but like anybody some times you can get the bull by the tail and personnally, I think the increase in trainers take from prizemoney is a mistake. Trainers do not make or break this stupid game we play, they feed of it like a lot of others....it's such a simple thing really, when did you hear of the lack of trainers in the game that was affecting field sizes????? It's never happened!

  7. #17
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    That's certainly fair comment where those two are concerned. They neither lacked for direction nor, to my knowledge, for resources.
    They are but two from a raft of many however, much more the exception than the rule.
    Like I said above....... It doesn't excuse their behaviour of course...some had more than enough kanga on hand prior to embarking on their dodgy excursions... but for a number of the smaller but nonetheless vital bit players, I feel it does go some way towards explaining it.
    By way of spreading some more $ around of course you're not going to stop everybody, everytime, all the time...but it's a start. The next thing will be an increase in the Driver %'s and I'm not against that either.
    Ideally I want to see NSW Harness Racing reach the point where we will have a whole swag of full-time Professional Trainers and full-time Professional Drivers on hand, we need people to see doing either or both as a viable career path/choice...not something they do in their spare time, and in the end that comes down to the folding stuff.
    If I jump that way and I work hard and make a go of it, am I going to be in a position where I can pay my bills and live a reasonable lifestyle?
    You know, there's long been somewhat of an underlying mental road block out there on the part of many Owners when it comes to this subject. Most Owners take a 'recreational persuit' viewpoint to their racing activities & so there's this implication there, they tend to view it as somehow being the same for their Trainers & Drivers...and of course that is simply not the case.
    It might initially sound like a leap of faith but I believe there are significant parallels to be drawn between this subject and that of drug testing.
    In both instances over the years we have all the heard repeated calls....on one hand for more Professionalism on the part of both Trainers and Drivers and on the other, more extensive/expansive drug testing...however, in both instances, nobody actually wants to pay for it.

  8. #18
    Member Gelding The Rainmaker will become famous soon enough
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    Theres some good discussion here gents. I have no issue with the training % increase providing there will be an increase in prizemoney to offset it and then some for owners, because at this point in time it's another cost to the owner. It seems a very backward way to me that HRNSW would announce this first before any prizemoney increase or what benefits will come to owners out of the race field legislation validation.

    The way I see it the trainers % increase is only going to benefit your McCarthys, Fitzpatricks, Thorns etc. because they're the blokes with the good stock churning out daily winners and metro winners at Menangle. Those blokes are already making a tidy living out of the sport. The % increase is also going to have no effect for an owner/trainer as what they will collect from a win/placing is all theirs anyway. But the battling trainers with small stables who train for a couple of clients to try and make a living and have stock with limited ability aren't going to get much benefit at all.

    The race fields legislation has been a windfall for NSW and I just hope they have the sense to give something to the 90% of owners who burn a hole in their pocket every year and some support to the trainers who need it the most.

  9. #19
    Senior Member 4YO Thevoiceofreason has a spectacular aura about
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rainmaker View Post
    Theres some good discussion here gents. I have no issue with the training % increase providing there will be an increase in prizemoney to offset it and then some for owners, because at this point in time it's another cost to the owner. It seems a very backward way to me that HRNSW would announce this first before any prizemoney increase or what benefits will come to owners out of the race field legislation validation.

    The way I see it the trainers % increase is only going to benefit your McCarthys, Fitzpatricks, Thorns etc. because they're the blokes with the good stock churning out daily winners and metro winners at Menangle. Those blokes are already making a tidy living out of the sport. The % increase is also going to have no effect for an owner/trainer as what they will collect from a win/placing is all theirs anyway. But the battling trainers with small stables who train for a couple of clients to try and make a living and have stock with limited ability aren't going to get much benefit at all.

    The race fields legislation has been a windfall for NSW and I just hope they have the sense to give something to the 90% of owners who burn a hole in their pocket every year and some support to the trainers who need it the most.
    Did you miss this bit of the announcement.
    The Board of Harness Racing NSW yesterday resolved to make the following changes to prizemoney distribution and trainer/driver percentages earned from prizemoney to coincide with stake increases to be introduced on 1 July 2012.

  10. #20
    Member Gelding The Rainmaker will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thevoiceofreason View Post
    Did you miss this bit of the announcement.
    The Board of Harness Racing NSW yesterday resolved to make the following changes to prizemoney distribution and trainer/driver percentages earned from prizemoney to coincide with stake increases to be introduced on 1 July 2012.
    Yes but where and what are the stakes increases?

    It should be priority number one, just like Racing NSW made it 2 days after the announcement of the race fields legislation. But according to this:

    Following on from the Race Fields Legislation High Court decision on 30 March 2012 the Board can now plan for the future with a far greater assurance of annual income streams, knowing that what has been quarantined
    from previous Race Fields payments can be used to fund initiatives. In order to best communicate what the high court decision means to harness racing stakeholders, representatives from the Board and relative Executive Staff will be travelling to each Region as per the below timetable to discuss the issues listed:

    Metropolitan Region Tabcorp Park Menangle Friday, 27 April @ 7:00pm
    Hunter/North West Region Newcastle Paceway Monday, 30 April @ 7:00pm
    Western Districts Bathurst Showground Tuesday, 1 May @ 7:00pm
    South West & Riverina Wagga Showground Wednesday, 2 May @ 7:00pm

    Funding Model

    TAB Distribution and Race Fields

    Training Centres & Tracks
    Racecourse Development Fund/National Party Election Promise

    Plant & Equipment Purchases

    Building & Track Works
    Race Dates 2012/13 and beyond

    Principles

    Aims

    Penalty Thresholds
    Race Programs/Handicapping

    Industry feedback concerning programming and handicapping
    User Pays Licences

    The introduction of a lower flat fee and a per drive/per starter fee for insurance, including the introduction of a state-wide Sulky Fund.
    NSW Breeders Challenge Nominators Bonuses

    The introduction of the Bonuses and what it means to nominators.
    General Discussion

    It seems like HRNSW have other grand plans with that money.

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