cobalt

[Messenger]

Forget motives, records etc Dean - explain those high readings

[Messenger]

I certainly agree with PB about this

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horse...29-glarv9.html

I am not so sure that Danny O'Brien would still be looking forward to the case (see attached Snip - best I could do as although I read The Sun today, I am not a subsciber) after this development

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horse...30-glbtzu.html

[Boydy]

Just wondering what people think of the opinion of one of the leading vets in Australia on Cobalt are??

https://audioboom.com/boos/3904249-n...gieter-4-12-15

There appears to be some serious questions at least whether Cobalt is a Class 1. According to Dr Nick Kannegieter, definitely not.

[Rob Nalder]

Just wondering what people think of the opinion of one of the leading vets in Australia on Cobalt are??

https://audioboom.com/boos/3904249-n...gieter-4-12-15

There appears to be some serious questions at least whether Cobalt is a Class 1. According to Dr Nick Kannegieter, definitely not.

Adam, No one can question Doctor Nicks knowledge and understanding of our great equine breed. This very forthright opinion he has expressed must raise several questions about Cobalt once again. The one point that nobody disagrees with is the point about large massive readings are extremely dangerous to the horse and should be dealt with as being totally harmful to the horse in question. Having said that I am still trying to understand all the factual details around Cobalt being a proven performance enhancer. We know it is extremely toxic in large quantities but I must admit I am yet to find any form of factual detail that can but to rest once and for all that Cobalt is a performance enhancer in the equine breed. I think we that have tried to stay fully educated on what has been put out there on Cobalt are all waiting to see the findings / research / studies presently being undertaken around the World on this very subject. One thing I do know is over the next 12 - 18 months we should all have the findings on this issue finally expressed in a way we can all agree on,one and for all.
All the best and keep up the research on it all.

Rob Nalder

[Messenger]

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horse...07-glh9mu.html

It would seem that Mr Gleeson thinks Danny O'Brien is a bit shifty

[Boydy]

Rob,

Thanks for the comments, normally information that differs from the "Lynch Mob" mentality don't get any type of response. I agree with you that anyone that is using non approved supplements to treat horses deserve everything they get. If participants are using concoctions brewed up by some wood-be chemist give them life. Its that simple and I have no sympathy for those people.

The issues with cobalt are, no testing has every been done on long term use, with all due respect 3 days is not long term. No testing has ever been done what the retention periods are if you received a horse that has been given high levels of cobalt particularly by another party, although HRNSW has done testing on a horse from a cobalt disqualified trainer however never chose to seize the horse. I often wonder why they seize horses with TCO2 but never seize the horse in question with regards cobalt. The cynic in me tells me it might prove something they do not want to prove. No testing or research has ever been done as to what are the performance enhancing traits of Cobalt or if there actually are any. Finally, under HRNSW own guidelines a Class 1 substance is a substance that should not be used for horses. Clearly approved substances contain Cobalt and even HRNSW trials that a horse can get over the level with approved supplements.

My feelings are that the majority of people convicted of Cobalt Offences are guilty and the industry feeling is, oh well to bad if the innocent minority have to pay the price. Guilty or not guilty I do not think that Cobalt in anyway can be shown as a Class 1 substance and maybe some time in the future this comment will be shown incorrect. If you follow Dr Nick logic any trainer should be injecting their horses with Cobalt containing supplements weeks before they race to get the supposed unproven EPO effect.

Like I said previously any trainer injecting or treating their horse with an unapproved substance should get life.

[Messenger]

Rob,

Thanks for the comments, normally information that differs from the "Lynch Mob" mentality don't get any type of response. I agree with you that anyone that is using non approved supplements to treat horses deserve everything they get. If participants are using concoctions brewed up by some wood-be chemist give them life. Its that simple and I have no sympathy for those people.

The issues with cobalt are, no testing has every been done on long term use, with all due respect 3 days is not long term. No testing has ever been done what the retention periods are if you received a horse that has been given high levels of cobalt particularly by another party, although HRNSW has done testing on a horse from a cobalt disqualified trainer however never chose to seize the horse. I often wonder why they seize horses with TCO2 but never seize the horse in question with regards cobalt. The cynic in me tells me it might prove something they do not want to prove. No testing or research has ever been done as to what are the performance enhancing traits of Cobalt or if there actually are any. Finally, under HRNSW own guidelines a Class 1 substance is a substance that should not be used for horses. Clearly approved substances contain Cobalt and even HRNSW trials that a horse can get over the level with approved supplements.

My feelings are that the majority of people convicted of Cobalt Offences are guilty and the industry feeling is, oh well to bad if the innocent minority have to pay the price. Guilty or not guilty I do not think that Cobalt in anyway can be shown as a Class 1 substance and maybe some time in the future this comment will be shown incorrect. If you follow Dr Nick logic any trainer should be injecting their horses with Cobalt containing supplements weeks before they race to get the supposed unproven EPO effect.

Like I said previously any trainer injecting or treating their horse with an unapproved substance should get life.

So that I know what to look out for in the future - are you saying that horses using approved supplements only can register a 200+ positive - How can anybody be found guilty, these gallops trainers have nothing to worry about

[Boydy]

Kevin, no I am not saying that.

However in my opinion and more importantly a world renowned vet like Nick Kannegieter has said that there is insufficient research to prove what the effects of cobalt are on horses in different situations and whether they are performance enhancing. The reality is the stewards cannot determine the difference between a positive swab from an approved supplement or a unapproved concoction. Unless like one trainer in NSW they found the concoction in his stables.

I believe that ever case should be access on its merits but with regards Cobalt I do not think this has happened.

With regards Peter Moody considering he seems to have no connection with disgraced vets, disqualified persons or colourful racing identities I think he it maybe be advantageous in him fighting his case.

[Messenger]

Kevin, no I am not saying that.

However in my opinion and more importantly a world renowned vet like Nick Kannegieter has said that there is insufficient research to prove what the effects of cobalt are on horses in different situations and whether they are performance enhancing. The reality is the stewards cannot determine the difference between a positive swab from an approved supplement or a unapproved concoction. Unless like one trainer in NSW they found the concoction in his stables.

I believe that ever case should be access on its merits but with regards Cobalt I do not think this has happened.

With regards Peter Moody considering he seems to have no connection with disgraced vets, disqualified persons or colourful racing identities I think he it maybe be advantageous in him fighting his case.

Adam, if you are not saying that then this statement seems highly ambiguous

"Clearly approved substances contain Cobalt and even HRNSW trials that a horse can get over the level with approved supplements."

[Boydy]

Kevin,

I am not sure why you consider this ambiguous.

Approved supplements such as Hemoplex, Hemo-15 and VAM all contain cobalt.

HRNSW trials used 10ml of Hemo-15 for 3 consecutive days and recorded levels well in excess 200ug/L.

There is one disqualified trainer that received a horse from another trainer and the original trainer has testified that they treated the horse with 600ml (Combined 200ml of each) of Hemo-15, Hemoplex and VAM in 22 days and apparently the testing HRNSW has conducted is consistent with this regime.

Kevin, you are an educated man, would you be comfortable with the HRNSW trial being used as a comparison against yourself. The only other trial was completed in the US where a massive dose of Cobalt was given in one administration. However, even HRNSW testing shows the levels rise if you treat horse with smaller doses over a longer period.