IDEAS on how we can improve Harness Racing

[Messenger]

Forget Monte races lets accentuate our point of difference from the gallops
Why not have double sulky races with owners partnering a registered driver
People are into experiences nowadays and this could be the ultimate racing experience

At present we have it over the gallops for participation in that one can become a owner/trainer/driver but not everyone has the time or desire to go down that path but there would be plenty of people that would love to participate in a race if there was an easier way - why not double sulky races

To promote ownership we could make it that you have to be a registered owner to partner a driver. Of course you would have to have a Dr's clearance and to have participated in a trial or two.

In due course I could see the opportunity for sponsorship from some of our wealthier business owners who get a taste for being the sidekick in the gig

If it caught on, existing owner/trainer/drivers need not be disadvantaged as there is nothing to stop them engaging a different driver

Am I crazy?

If you have any other left field ideas post them here

[Richard prior]

It's a great Idea Kev!!

[Sofoulis]

I'm in! Great idea. Put it forward to a couple of the clubs? Or perhaps go straight to the state racing bodies / HRA? The interesting part will be:
1. insurance
2. owners complaining about tactics post race
3. how much information would need to be in the racebook for it (i.e. a 150kg owner vs a 50kg owner has to have some impact?)

[Richard prior]

Good points Adam, The 150kg owner would need to be on the inside of the Double gig for sure, I reckon that myself and Wayne(Arlington) would be right as I'm in the 110kg range but it would be a bit like that old Not So Squeezy Ad that Mitsubishi trucks used to run a few years ago lol, It might make critical owners think from a different perspective if they were going around in a Double Sulky.

[Messenger]

Good points Adam, The 150kg owner would need to be on the inside of the Double gig for sure, I reckon that myself and Wayne(Arlington) would be right as I'm in the 110kg range but it would be a bit like that old Not So Squeezy Ad that Mitsubishi trucks used to run a few years ago lol, It might make critical owners think from a different perspective if they were going around in a Double Sulky.

LOL Rich, it might also improve the diets of some owners

I would not expect a 150kg owner to pass the medical. While all the pro drivers we have now are lightweights we do have a wide range of weights in the owner/trainer/driver ranks which are not in the racebook
As far as insurance goes, I am sure there would be plenty of answers

[Mighty Atom]

Double-Sulky Races for owners.......NO, NO, NO Kev. I suppose I'm the atypical one as usual but I have always viewed Monte Races as ridiculous thankfully we don't have them in WA. Most laymen would probably see Monte races as an oddity at best they just look silly......... Double - Sulky Races!!! I started to despair some years ago when Harness Racing Clubs started a transfiguration from horse racing to some sort of sideshow alley carnival i.e. fireworks displays, Rock bands, kids entertainment areas - no thanks. I think this idea will detract from what Harness racing should be about.

[Messenger]

You have not told me what is wrong with 2 in the cart Rod

[Richard prior]

Hey Kev, I don't know if I would have them racing each other closely but maybe something like the Individual Pursuit in Cycling would be okay.

[Adaptor]

They are doing something close to what Kev describes with dual sulkies at Alexandra Park NZ.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11434208

At Bendigo for the past 12 months or more, we've been using the double sulky with a pro driver and an owner (sometimes a sponsor) who go out during the warm up for a race. It's not a race, but they are out on the track with the starters for the next race.
Maryborough used 3 sulkies all on the track and "racing" at the Maryborough Cup meeting.

The biggest challenge is not the dual sulkies, pro drivers..they are very keen to be involved.. or the gear ( Worlds Best Hoof Oil sponsors Bendigo's rides..thanks Bruce and Margaret) it's finding suitable horses in good enough shape and quiet enough to do what is required safely. Insurance is not an issue as participants sign an indemnity.
Highlights are that Mediatech video the dual sulky ride and we get that for the particpanys, if participants know in advance...say they win the ride in a competition, they bring friends along and there is much excitement, as its a pretty big deal to be in the sulky with Chris Alford or Greg Sugars or any of the top drivers. Can't do that with Damien Oliver or Michelle Payne !


The individual pursuit idea over 1 lap would be worth looking at, or someone suggested to me that lap prizes..like the bikes...might change boring racing patterns

[Adaptor]

There's more..
USTA run a Fantasy Camp for owners where they use the double sulkies. People pay for the 3 or 4 day experience.

ww.pennsylvaniaequestrian.com/news2012/september/Standardbred-Enthusiasts-Learn-to-Race-at-USTA-Driving-School.php

[Mighty Atom]

You have not told me what is wrong with 2 in the cart Rod

I suppose I'm a traditionalist Kev one horse, one driver. What other quirky ideas will they come up with??

[Messenger]

I am a traditionalist too Rod but except for your state, the game is struggling to attract people. Of course it does not help that some states have NO metro track

[allanjg]

i don`t think two in a sulky would work kev,the better option would be to create a special saddle that could accomodate both a rider and a sulky,the driver up front and the passenger out the back...imagine rounding the home turn looking at kate gaths or greg sugars rear end and yelling instructions.also we could add a little gismo to the saddle that could eject the sulky if the passenger became to much of a pain in the ass.;)

[Messenger]

Very good Allan lol
I have been waiting for a driver to tell me that it would not work (come in Nathan)
I wonder whether a tandem sulky design (passenger behind driver) might not be better than a double sulky for safety etc

[Njcstables]

Very good Allan lol
I have been waiting for a driver to tell me that it would not work (come in Nathan)
I wonder whether a tandem sulky design (passenger behind driver) might not be better than a double sulky for safety etc

I don't think they would be for me Kev. I've never been great at taking instructions from owners. Anyway, my wife and father own the majority of mine and they tell me what to do more than I care for already. I don't think I could handle it on the track too. I think I would have pushed Allan's eject button before the first turn.

[Messenger]

Thanks Nathan. It is funny how we can conjure up different pictures.
I am picturing an owner almost too gobsmacked to breathe much less talk and instruct the pro

[Richard prior]

I don't think they would be for me Kev. I've never been great at taking instructions from owners. Anyway, my wife and father own the majority of mine and they tell me what to do more than I care for already. I don't think I could handle it on the track too. I think I would have pushed Allan's eject button before the first turn.
Lol, My wife wouldn't even make the score up before Allan's eject button was pushed, Now there's an idea!!!

[DRUIDRACING]

having experienced fast work with my trainer many years ago all owners should go in these sulkies and realise what a great job the drivers do to get the horses around. Count me in.

[Big K]

I see that you ask for other left field ideas Kev!!..well Im always thinking about how we can improve participation in this great sport by the way of ownership and involvement.In most cirlcles the idea is to get young people to the track...get them interested by having good bands oncourse and such..now new information is telling us that most young people dont have very much money...most of the money about is with 40 to 60 yr olds who are both working and have the kids almost off there hands.Alot of places are springing up here where that the horsey people have someone looking after their horse and on the weekends they can go for a ride or just enjoy their horse without having 24/7 hands on involvement.We also have a wonderful movement with Standardbred Organizations providing retired horses with new opportunities in standardbred classes at shows and the like.I have put a proposal up at a recent industry meeting and Im interested to hear other peoples thoughts and opinions as well.
So I put forward a paper expressing that I would like to see as an example a race where trainers nominate their horse for a race but that race has 2 parts to it.Of course you have the normal race as we all know it..but before that maybe a couple of hours..you have the horses entered in that race on lead or under saddle or some other stadardbred thingy where the people who say own the horse are involved.The stake would be split in half to cover each division..I think this idea has a chance to grow participation but in essence keep the sport as it is..Can you imagine say a good stake race!! pretty enticing to people who love to be involved with their horse.Well thats it..thoughts please.

[Messenger]

It would seem that both Kevs are interested in ownership and participation.
You would like this YouTube clip I posted elsewhere
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VEMuLaKD9sc

The difficulty we are always going to hit is the 'punting is our lifeblood' argument.
I wonder whether it has to be a 2 part event or whether we could have some type of event for retrained standardbreds between races

[Messenger]

We have had threads like this before but I am starting a new one.

The following is taken from an email I have just sent :


Entertainment product and marketing have to be improved while turnover needs to go up.

Like your suggestion - we have to explore outside of the box.

Taking share off gallops and greyhounds is a huge task. Arresting the decline is no doubt a start

The gallops have a HUGE media advantage while the dogs have the advantage of cheap quick product

At present we seem to be concentrating on increasing turnover by increasing the number of races ($3,500) that we run



While I think we need to be innovative I fear that most innovations if successful will be replicated by our opposition.

A grass Inter is an interesting thought - one side of me likes the promotional potential while my 'small track' side wants us to promote our point of difference from the gallops. We have to have a superior point of difference that cannot be replicated by the opposition - superior in that it catches the publics hearts I think small track racing is one such point

Regardless of what the suggestion is - we need people continually coming up with IDEAS, ideas that can be individual to our sport



I don't know that attendance is as important as it once was (it is still VERY important mind you) but when I took the misses to St Arnaud yesterday I only stayed 3 races in fairness to her. Even though we parked on the fence (special in itself and like going to the local footy) so she had her 'stuff' to entertain her between races and the horses doing their preliminaries helped - between the second and third race we were there she said, "How long is it between races?". 40 mins can seem like an eternity. Ideally we need the races much closer together (but Sky determines this) or we need something happening on the track/the stage between races. An MC (and guest interviews) can keep people in a lounge entertained but at St Arnaud and hopefully most venues - you will not fit the whole crowd in the lounge. Pony trots are value but they are only a Saturday and Sunday afternoon or school holidays option.



We need to think of something entertaining that is horse related and logistically viable. I am not a fan of musical entertainment as the answer - if I wanted musical entertainment, I would go to a music venue. It is like 'pokies', while I understand that these dangerous machines help sporting clubs like St Arnaud, as far as attendance goes - you cannot pretend you are in the horse industry if that is what the people are turning up for


I have waffled on a bit but hopefully someone can come up with the Big Idea that can make a difference

[Amlin]

Only way you could decrease the time between races would be if you closed all betting before the first, then you could run races 15 mins apart. Nobody else is doing this, maybe we could do a test of it?

[Messenger]

Great outside the square thinking Kyle. I wonder about the loss of 'reinvesting'. Maybe a 12 race program with 4 races in an hour, half hour break/investing time, 4 races in an hour, ....... With a heavy promotion of 3 Quaddies

Or would the reduced time and the potential protests etc only necessitate 2 sets of stewards and payouts delayed by 1 race eg Div's from R1 not paid out until before R3

[Messenger]

How about we send someone to Norway, really investigate the no-whip racing and make that a point of difference from the gallops

[Greg Hando]

Only way you could decrease the time between races would be if you closed all betting before the first, then you could run races 15 mins apart. Nobody else is doing this, maybe we could do a test of it?

Have you ever tried unharnessing one and washing it and getting the next one in for the next race very hard and mistakes happen and can cost a race win been there done that they tried 20 min intervals in NSW while good for betting not so much for trainers/drivers /stewards and track curators

[Toohard]

Went to the dog Melbourne Cup few weeks back. From an entertainment point of view it was awesome. So much going on between races and heaps of stuff for kids. And heaps of 20-25 age group there... maybe due close proximity to the Uni. Again a one off and a 2 hour drive for us but I'd go back again.

But they have an advantage entertainment wise. Dogs not out on track 10 mins before race warming up.

You won't get punters back to the track these days. Why would they go? Endless traffic snarls and cold weather. Better to stay home with live TV and phones to bet with. Those of us old enough to have seen it happen when things changed will remember the punters left the track first. And subsequently, took the bookmakers with them.

Want other people to go to the track you need to entertain them. Like last night at Melton. Is that a priority? But tipping that probably cost money. Didn't see a lot of people punting last night and everything was free.

Innovative.* Neither my ideas but in UK when I was there (gallops) they put bands on in summer after the last. Twilight meets and if pay to get in before say race 3 you get to see band for nothing. Else pay extra to get in. Decent crowds of young people there to watch races and have a bet.

At one track went to (Windsor) they had figure 8 racing. Another in France went to had it too. It was fascinating to watch. Someone else suggest it on twitter recently. Leader become death seat horse after half a lap and vice versa. Home straight extra long as run diagonally. No sprint lanes needed ...probably coz drivers and horses dizzy!

[Messenger]

Do you think there would be any interest from people with horses for sale to work them between races or parade them in the home straight if they are not in work (or are competing in the next race)
The semaphore board could post their details

Would it create enough interest to fill the gap?

(This thread is for tossing ideas around - don't be afraid to be wrong and if the majority think you are, just take it on the chin and go again)

[Messenger]

Went to the dog Melbourne Cup few weeks back. From an entertainment point of view it was awesome. So much going on between races and heaps of stuff for kids. And heaps of 20-25 age group there... maybe due close proximity to the Uni. Again a one off and a 2 hour drive for us but I'd go back again.

But they have an advantage entertainment wise. Dogs not out on track 10 mins before race warming up.

You won't get punters back to the track these days. Why would they go? Endless traffic snarls and cold weather. Better to stay home with live TV and phones to bet with. Those of us old enough to have seen it happen when things changed will remember the punters left the track first. And subsequently, took the bookmakers with them.

Want other people to go to the track you need to entertain them. Like last night at Melton. Is that a priority? But tipping that probably cost money. Didn't see a lot of people punting last night and everything was free.

Innovative.* Neither my ideas but in UK when I was there (gallops) they put bands on in summer after the last. Twilight meets and if pay to get in before say race 3 you get to see band for nothing. Else pay extra to get in. Decent crowds of young people there to watch races and have a bet.

At one track went to (Windsor) they had figure 8 racing. Another in France went to had it too. It was fascinating to watch. Someone else suggest it on twitter recently. Leader become death seat horse after half a lap and vice versa. Home straight extra long as run diagonally. No sprint lanes needed ...probably coz drivers and horses dizzy!

Why punters left is worth analysing to move forward
I will substitute 'punters' for public in some points
We know there has been more competition in the entertainment industry
Did they leave because facilities were not good enough? Because transport became an issue? Because viewing at home became so much better?

The thought of why do people go entered my mind yesterday (I had travelled 75 min to get there and had time to kill between races before travelling 75 min home - admittedly I like driving in the country but hate city snarls [recent weeks spent in Melbourne have proven to me that the city is $*@#^&])
I don't believe that viewing from home is much better - maybe if you are simply a gambler or are watching Sydney gallops on their Boutique Foxtel channel (I have been tempted)

Why do people go out to a movie? (Declining too, you say but you get my point - sometimes you just want to get out)

What if we made it more financially attractive for a punter to be on course (Change the takeout ratios) while improving the total package

If home is better do we really even need horses. Watching the boutique gallops channels they tell good stories about the horses and people but I could imagine with advances in animation they could produce dog racing that would look as good as the current product (and could come with a 'this is a random draw' message like they do before Tattslotto). I haven't looked at the animated stuff they have in the TABs for a long while - is it nearly there?

I cannot however imagine the public getting too excited about the animated Winx

I don't really want us to get into the music business but top quality food and drinks must go hand in hand with any entertainment over a lengthy time slot

ps Figure 8 racing sounds very interesting although I am guessing it couldn't involve small track excitement but it would seem much better suited to harness than any other code

[Amlin]

Do you think there would be any interest from people with horses for sale to work them between races or parade them in the home straight if they are not in work (or are competing in the next race)
The semaphore board could post their details

Would it create enough interest to fill the gap?

(This thread is for tossing ideas around - don't be afraid to be wrong and if the majority think you are, just take it on the chin and go again)

I did suggest about three years ago where all horses competing could have a sale price on if connections wish. Horses still run in races as programmed now and price amount or lack of price at all does not influence draw.

In a T0 only trot three of the 10 runners are on the market. Interested persons can see the fields, review past replays online along with pedigree, then attend on raceday to view horse, watch prelim and purchase via current claiming process.

A fixed percentage of the sale price is kept by the host club on the condition it is reinvested into stakes at that track.

Just a thought, it has not progressed anywhere though

[Amlin]

Have you ever tried unharnessing one and washing it and getting the next one in for the next race very hard and mistakes happen and can cost a race win been there done that they tried 20 min intervals in NSW while good for betting not so much for trainers/drivers /stewards and track curators

Appreciate the time gap creates issues as it did in Vic.

At Melton where many horses are local they could run a four race card, with a maximum Quad jackpot/kick off, one group of 10 premier drivers, betting closes before the start (like lotto) with all races shown on FTA TV.

Again the gaps required would be the hurdle in creating a non-stop action extravaganza

[Toohard]

Why punters left is worth analysing to move forward
I will substitute 'punters' for public in some points
We know there has been more competition in the entertainment industry
Did they leave because facilities were not good enough? Because transport became an issue? Because viewing at home became so much better?

The thought of why do people go entered my mind yesterday (I had travelled 75 min to get there and had time to kill between races before travelling 75 min home - admittedly I like driving in the country but hate city snarls [recent weeks spent in Melbourne have proven to me that the city is $*@#^&])
I don't believe that viewing from home is much better - maybe if you are simply a gambler or are watching Sydney gallops on their Boutique Foxtel channel (I have been tempted)

Why do people go out to a movie? (Declining too, you say but you get my point - sometimes you just want to get out)

What if we made it more financially attractive for a punter to be on course (Change the takeout ratios) while improving the total package

If home is better do we really even need horses. Watching the boutique gallops channels they tell good stories about the horses and people but I could imagine with advances in animation they could produce dog racing that would look as good as the current product (and could come with a 'this is a random draw' message like they do before Tattslotto). I haven't looked at the animated stuff they have in the TABs for a long while - is it nearly there?

I cannot however imagine the public getting too excited about the animated Winx

I don't really want us to get into the music business but top quality food and drinks must go hand in hand with any entertainment over a lengthy time slot

ps Figure 8 racing sounds very interesting although I am guessing it couldn't involve small track excitement but it would seem much better suited to harness than any other code

They left because it was easier and better to watch/bet from home. You won't get them back.... way of the world.

[djgood]

so we need to fix up the handicapping to make the punters want to bet again , easier said than done as when people try change the handicapping to make it fairer and the fields more competitive ,its pitchfork and man the barricades time

[Messenger]

They left because it was easier and better to watch/bet from home. You won't get them back.... way of the world.

That of course is in your opinion Paul.
For a start you are only talking about the 'punter' not somebody who wants a night/day out
I cannot agree that it is better to watch from home - continuous bombardment of Sky drives me nuts - to the extent I hit the mute button (problem then is not to miss the next race you are interested in LOL), then there is the ordinary picture quality. If I am not there, I more often than not just watch the replays later (not much of a punter anymore) If I never attended a meeting and was a stay at home follower only, I would probably switch to following Sydney gallops on Thoroughbred Central - top pic, right mix of banter, less ads.

What would it take to get 'punters' back (if that was deemed desirable). What if the on course pool was separate from the off course (maybe for only Win and Place) eg the take from Off course is raised by 2.5% so that the take from on course could be dropped 2.5% or thereabouts so that there was a 5% advantage in betting on course. It would take some figuring but you get the idea
Or could there be some advantage, smaller fee for on course bookies - which may or may not result in a return of bookies and punters (calculated of course, to not be detrimental to the industry)
Just brainstorming here of course

[Messenger]

I received the following via pm

"Agree with Toohard, you won't get the punters back to the track, it is easier for them to punt from home, and the gaps between races are not too long for stay at home punters, they're often punting on something else in the interim.

Kev we already have a point of difference with the gallops without revisiting the whip issue, our horses are in harness pulling a sulky and you don't have to be a tiny or emaciated human to drive one in races or in training.

The days of drawing large crowds to race meetings are largely gone and whilst we do need to provide some entertainment during our meetings we, as you said Kev, aren't a music venue and providing alternative entertainment to the racing shouldn't be our first priority, though something/somewhere to entertain/deposit the kids would be helpful to allow their parents to focus on the racing. And a little music between or after races, even if only piped over the PA can't do much harm. And quality affordable food and drink is a must.

Something that animated racing will never be able to duplicate in the future is the ability for humans to engage first hand, one on one, with that wonderful animal the horse. We need to accept that the large crowds are gone and do more to integrate those people who do come to the races, because of an interest in the races, not because of free alternative entertainment, into our harness racing family.

Our horses have largely disappeared from urban environments, the ability to see up close, to touch and interact with a horse for so so many people these days is gone. We need to bring that back at our race meetings. To have people be able to get close to a horse, to touch and feel their silky coats and feel their warm breath on the back of their hands, to be able to look into a horses eyes and see the love, trust and bond that they have with humans. We need more people to be able to experience the feel of sitting behind a horse.

We need to get our people interacting more with those who go to the races to gain and retain their interest, changes need to be made which allow our race day guests to interact with our participants more without compromising or suggesting integrity is compromised on raceday by doing so.

Stable areas have become sterile zones, with access denied to non participants, drivers aren't allowed to bet anymore so are rarely able to interact with the public for fear of being caught too close to a tote machine ( or these days I guess standing next to anyone with a betting app on their phone could be crossing that line).

We need our drivers to mingle with the public whilst wearing their colours, how else do we expect newbies to recognise them. Our trainers if not quite adopting "colours" such as American trainers wear should be encouraged to wear embroidered polos or shirts proclaiming their and their stables identity and mingle with the public. We need to modify our stable areas and pre race parades ( on track as in the U.S.) and give the public every opportunity to view our horses and what we do.

We need locations in the public areas where our human stars can be found and interact with the public during a race meeting. And we need harness racing ambassadors amongst the people at the races who can answer questions from the public on all things from explaining different bet types to how to place a bet. On how to become part of a syndicate, to where to find horses for sale outright, or when our yearling sales are on, to how to find a trainer in their area and an idea of what training costs maybe and what deals can be done with trainers or breeders. How much prizemoney can be won and the bonus schemes available. What the gear on a horse is, why some horses wear more and others less, what happens to former racehorses. What the different license categories are, and how to get one, how to join their local harness club, the identities of our social and regular media outlets, etc etc etc. Paying someone or someones to specifically interact with the public one on one, or one on small groups between races is more important then paying a musician to entertain them.

In other words we have to stop relying on people knocking on harness racings door of their own volition to get in but go out amongst them and invite them in. We don't need huge crowds in the hope that some get involved, we need to make everyone in our small crowds feel welcomed and keen to be more involved"


The highlights are my doing
The HERO program front and centre at the track would certainly fulfill the first highlight

[Messenger]

Another I received via email:

"I don’t think we need another metro centre (unless it was city centric i.e Showgrounds) if we could race 12 Saturday night meets on the MV grass track – with some clever modifications

I think you could install a 900 metre grass track incorporating the outside running of the MV home straight to get fans close to the action

The other 40 main Saturday night meetings should be spread between major centres Ballarat, Bendigo, Shepparton and Kilmore (all well established harness racing and breeding centres) where minimum stakes

should be $15,000 providing an incentive to breed to those with properties (no adjstment costs)

The other 52 Friday nights should be allocated to non major Club lit tracks plus the 4 Clubs above

Sundays should be reserved for non lit tracks including their Cup carnivals

Monday, Tuesday and Thursday day/night meetings split between a combination of lit and non lit tracks that do not qualify for Friday/Saturday meetings

Consistent days for each Club is important so fans become used to when their local tracks"

[arlington]

The Old New Thing

Has anyone suggested removing some sprint lanes? Might be time to experiment.

[KTQ]

News coverage of records broke, big races etc, more comfortable facilities with SEATING (I find it so uncomfortable at the trots: too hot, too cold, no seats with a view. No one wants that), make horses, drivers and trainers famous and approachable, teach people how to bet so they feel like they have control rather than betting because "I like its name'

[gutwagon]

I would like to see glass enclosed grand stands with each seat having a desk and video screen where you can choose which other races you watch.

Open up the stable areas to the public again.

Every track needs free wifi so you can bet via your phone or tablet, some tracks have terrible phone coverage.
No more than 25 minutes between races.

Standing starts .

Victoria needs at least one 1400m or 1609m track so owners and breeders can match or better the times they run in NSW.

Some more betting options, I think we can scrap the "duet" as it always has very small pools. I would like a bet where you pick first and last. I would like to be able to back any horse to beat the favorite home. A bet where you pick the card (pick every winner at the meeting) and who ever picks the most winners gets the pool or shares it, this could be for on course punters and the club or board could put some money into the pool to attract people to the track.

Try some races without the sprint lane and see how that effects turnover. I think the sprint lane leads to boring racing with less moves being made mid race, I also think it reduces the chance of horses back in the field from wining .

Sky racing needs an option for us to be able to choose which races we see and we need to see the score up in full screen and the odds further out from start time. Even watch the horses warming up if we want to.

I would like stewards to explain their decisions to the public eg. why trainer A gets a large penalty and trainer B gets a small penalty for the same offense, why one trainer changes tactics without notification and gets away with it and another gets fined.

[halfyourluck]

Re Wayne's comment on sprint lane.
Cammie Haughton (son of legend and a man with extensive experience in all areas of US harness) was recently appointed Director of Racing at Yonkers.
Just about the first thing he has done is to get rid of the sprint lane at Yonkers. The change is scheduled to take effect Jan 7th.

[Pogga]

Re Wayne's comment on sprint lane.
Cammie Haughton (son of legend and a man with extensive experience in all areas of US harness) was recently appointed Director of Racing at Yonkers.
Just about the first thing he has done is to get rid of the sprint lane at Yonkers. The change is scheduled to take effect Jan 7th.

Brilliant, get rid of the bloody things, and let the drivers race properly. Can only hope for the same in Oz.

I wish there was still a metro track. Imagine the pulling power with the current investment in marketing/media. One of the main reasons for it's slow death at the Valley in Vic, it was left to die. I attended the trots with my family every Saturday night (unless there was a wedding or something stopping me!) when it was at the Valley. Quick cab ride & away we went! I only go now if I've got a horse running. Maybe I love a beer too much but you can't get to a track easily using public transport or cab from the burbs.

[Messenger]

Brilliant, get rid of the bloody things, and let the drivers race properly. Can only hope for the same in Oz.

I wish there was still a metro track. Imagine the pulling power with the current investment in marketing/media. One of the main reasons for it's slow death at the Valley in Vic, it was left to die. I attended the trots with my family every Saturday night (unless there was a wedding or something stopping me!) when it was at the Valley. Quick cab ride & away we went! I only go now if I've got a horse running. Maybe I love a beer too much but you can't get to a track easily using public transport or cab from the burbs.

Stephen, you might have noticed the suggestion in post 15, that we should investigate the viability of returning to the Valley for a dozen metro Grass meets, with the other metro class meets split between the big country tracks.
Not only would it cater for Melburnians, it would give the marketing/media something they could really sell

[Pogga]

Stephen, you might have noticed the suggestion in post 15, that we should investigate the viability of returning to the Valley for a dozen metro Grass meets, with the other metro class meets split between the big country tracks.
Not only would it cater for Melburnians, it would give the marketing/media something they could really sell

Perfect Kevin! Just reinforcing your point mate ;)

[Messenger]

Perfect Kevin! Just reinforcing your point mate ;)

It is actually a proposal from Ray Chaplin of Equine Excellence - I just thought it was interesting that the two of you both thought of the Valley for its marketing potential (for the Inter too!)

[Messenger]

Just had a look at the plans for Moonee Valley's redevelopment and there is no way they are going to make any changes for us with it due to start in 2020 so we would have to be prepared to race on a big circuit

[Toohard]

Ricks idea about an on course pick the card comp sound good. Pay entry fee and fill in on course form. Must be on track to enter and collect. Jackpot if no one win. Maryborough do one (did one) where have to pick last 6 winners.

Put a show jumping arena in centre of track at Melton and have comps on race nights. Get a whole new bunch of horse people there.

Dunno about Moonee Valley. Once bitten twice shy? Showgrounds would have been ideal. All that space and its hardly used except for peak times of year.

Yes Melton hard to get to. And getting worse. Hour & half drive home from town (if lucky) and then another half hour get there. On a good day. But once there it's OK. Saturday night meetings a winner for me!

[Fan of Jate]

A lot of great ideas coming through. Moonee valley is interstate for me but good luck with getting racing back there. Just a note on travel, I often travel to Launceston which is a 3 hr drive one way to watch my horse run and to Hobart it is 4.5 hrs one way.

[Messenger]

A lot of great ideas coming through. Moonee valley is interstate for me but good luck with getting racing back there. Just a note on travel, I often travel to Launceston which is a 3 hr drive one way to watch my horse run and to Hobart it is 4.5 hrs one way.

Pat, are you living somewhere near Strahan?

[Fan of Jate]

Kev, I am out near Wynyard (Burnie way).....Strahan is way out west, be tough having a racehorse down that way and travelling to watch it race.

[djgood]

i may bore people with this but we need to get the handicapping right ,
look at race 6 at Newcastle Saturday night , $140,000 earner C4 mare racing in a no better than C2 using a junior driver concession and mares concession , next best earner in the race 70,000 but rest have earned 20-30K, Danny Gibson has one it and we have discussed this on many occasions the overuse of concessions are making the racing a lot less competitive,
and i got nothing against people using the rules as they are but even blind Freddie can see its going to be track work for this horse and next week the same horses will probably come up against another similar horse , and races that are a procession are boring who wants to watch a moral win , people want to see competition and get good odds about what they back , backing $1.50 shots its easy money but not going to attract crowds or pub people wanting a punt

[Messenger]

David, I am not disagreeing with the handicap issue and I think you're right that $1.50 shots don't encourage people to punt but in Vic they should as there is value to be had with half of them losing

[arlington]

Adopt something like this
http://www.harnesslink.com/International/New-Stakes-Conditions-Announced-to-Strengthen-Integrity

[Messenger]

Adopt something like this
http://www.harnesslink.com/International/New-Stakes-Conditions-Announced-to-Strengthen-Integrity

"The new stakes conditions prohibit any owner, trainer, or horse from participating in an added money event if they have been found by a racing regulatory agency to have tested positive for prohibited substances as defined within the Association of Racing Commissioners International Uniform Classification for Foreign Substances of Class 1, 2, TC02 or steroids after January 1, 2018"

It would certainly draw a line in the sand

[arlington]

"The new stakes conditions prohibit any owner, trainer, or horse from participating in an added money event if they have been found by a racing regulatory agency to have tested positive for prohibited substances as defined within the Association of Racing Commissioners International Uniform Classification for Foreign Substances of Class 1, 2, TC02 or steroids after January 1, 2018"

It would certainly draw a line in the sand

John Campbell consulted on the rule

http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/2018/01/07/owners-focus-tough-new-weg-big-m-rule/#.WlIECLO8IfE.facebook

... He said. "Why don’t you start off with (Class) Is, IIs, TCO2s and steroids? There should be nobody milkshaking a horse that doesn’t know they are doing it, so there’s no chance of a mistake. Same thing with steroids…".

[Fan of Jate]

Unfortunate that this type of position had to be taken up by basically an individual with no position of administrative power in a horse racing regulatory organisation govt appointed or otherwise although they use regulatory definitions for illegalities that may be committed. Why is that? Why does a racecourse owner/business group take this action when the governing body has not? I include Australian regulatory bodies in this because this is a local forum. When someone suggests these types of penalties they get shouted down by the whingers, whiners and fence sitters who are to busy worried about who is going to put $5 on the next favourite from the comfort of their lounge room therefore making the live racing track meeting redundant. Will it work, In the states most possibly because otherwise you wont be able to race at the tracks in question if you test positive on the various charges and the business leader has the guts to take it on.

Kev said make a point of difference to gallops/dogs .....maybe this it, make it clean and green. But those in bold type wont let it happen here neither will the regulatory bodies make it happen, they are to scared that 10 people on twitter or facebook will say nasty things about them and let these wasters run the industry from behind a Computer screen. Can you imagine the squealers if these rules applied at the Inters or the APG sales races. I would make it 2 years disqualification by the way.

I never see anything about harness racing on free to air TV....nothing newsworthy that makes you sit up and take notice....."wow...this group means business about integrity" Why is that? If someone on this forum can tell me that last time that happened apart from some Interdominion news point it out to me please. I see more about tadpole racing on the news than harness racing. Does a tadpole chew on a fence post or rail? Hope not or we are all in trouble. How many golden opportunities does an organisation want to improve its image and a sport that is dying?

Just for fun, maybe some of our forum experts could look back at the last couple of Inters/miracle mile etc and see which trainers/drivers and owners actually have that "positive test" along side their name.

Old Irish saying......."Take away the excuses and see what you have got left"

[Fan of Jate]

I am a great believer in getting a good crowd to a track. GP race track is perfectly positioned to take advantage of its city location and does on several big nights like Italian night. I differ from Rod and others where I see entertainment as a must have at the races . I cant see the tracks surviving without it, times have changed, what happened 30 years ago in relation to crowd numbers will never be repeated. With a big crowd the Racing club makes money, all the vendors make money and even the punters can make some money, what is wrong with that, nobody seems to give a plausible answer as to what is wrong with a business making money at a sporting event and everyone having a good time? It even drags the bagmen out to try and make a quid. It doesn't really matter if 50% of the crowd aren't that interested in the racing. I recently went to the boxing day test and 25% would not have seen a ball bowled. Go to the Melbourne cup and see how many dont watch the races. The only thing I would suggest as others have done is to tie in the entry to the event by having to have a wager or be there at the last race to collect on a super six or other bet. If you have 6000 people at a racetrack having a bet what is wrong with that? (not counting the 2000 kids).

[Messenger]

2 years disqualification sounds good to me Pat. I have come to the realization that owners/horses cannot be exempt if we are to make an impact

[arlington]

Seven West Media takes punt on second horse racing channel

http://www.afr.com/business/media-and-marketing/tv/seven-west-media-takes-punt-on-second-horse-racing-channel-20180109-h0fmq9

No negotiations for some harness racing?

[Messenger]

Not an AFR subscriber so the link only opened for a millisecond Wayne.

Is this to be another channel like Ch78 (which I cannot get)?

Probably not much chance for us with only 12% market share - unless they saw us as a project

[teecee]

Seven West Media takes punt on second horse racing channel

http://www.afr.com/business/media-and-marketing/tv/seven-west-media-takes-punt-on-second-horse-racing-channel-20180109-h0fmq9

No negotiations for some harness racing?

This link is only available to view by sub to AFR ???
Please ensure that when linking to another article that it is able to be seen by others otherwise no point in including it with your post

[arlington]

Humble apologies, will try another.

Seven West Media takes punt on second horse racing channel

http://www.sportstradingaustralia.com.au/1/category/racingcom89b67670b6/1.html two articles, need to scroll down page.

12% means nought to your joint venture partner?

[Messenger]

Thanks Wayne. If they are only going to do Saturdays, it will not compare with Vic's especially as Ch.7 already show the big NSW and QLD carnivals on their main channel
It will however be good for the NSW and QLD Saturday punters for they will know that they can see the metro meet every week without Foxtel, streaming or venturing out

[arlington]

No problems Kev. But it still puts more and more thoroughbred racing in family lounge rooms for free irrespective of which State. This only goes towards reducing harness racing relative exposure, hence turnover. Tabcorp are looking to use the Sky telecast, and using Vic as an example with us being joint venture partners (even with our 12%), there's no room or thought to televise some Saturday night big harness meetings?

The farce that is Sky with harness continually being bumped to Sky 2, if Tabcorp is going in on free to air, they have an obligation to look after all partners.

A broken record, was it Hamilton trots that was bumped to Sky2 whilst they waited for Qld gallops running late. But the greatest insult was the Qld race was on the other gallops Sky channel as well. So, for your minimum Foxtel package you could watch that same gallops race on two Sky channels but couldn't watch Hamilton trots. That's BS.

[Messenger]

Wayne, you know you will get no argument from me about 'Harness Racing Needs Better Than Sky1'
I have banged on for years about how we need to be on free to air only to be told that it is not as important as it once was - seems to me that the gallops are doing alright out of it

I have admitted before that I cannot watch Sky for any length of time - it is headache material not entertainment.
If I wanted to watch racing for entertainment and relaxation the pace of NSW's Thoroughbred Central would be my choice. Racing.com - Ch68/78 used to be ok then they started trying to pack to much racing and advertising into it (and I cannot resist the HD video of NSW's offering)

[Messenger]

I don't often read Greg Baum but did today and thought his Age article relevant to harness racing too

"..........

I'm jacking up at the way the presentation of sport is pitched exclusively at kids. Look around: the Big Bash League, the Australian Open, soon your friendly neighbourhood football code.

Here, something to bang together. There, something that explodes. Here, some dancing. There, bright colours and movement: remember those from your cot, and how they made you gurgle? Here, a big screen on which you might appear, if only you are colourful enough, and move a lot, and bang things together.

........

Through all the banging and crashing and firebombing and deafening, a sad subliminal message emerges. It is that promoters don't like, understand or trust their own game enough to make it the focus. They're scared that it is not engaging enough, and so, look over here, kids, and here, and here, anywhere but out there."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/sport-is-kidding-itself-20180119-h0l2v1.html

You have to get your product right and sell your product not fluff

[arlington]

I don't often read Greg Baum but did today and thought his Age article relevant to harness racing too

"..........

I'm jacking up at the way the presentation of sport is pitched exclusively at kids. Look around: the Big Bash League, the Australian Open, soon your friendly neighbourhood football code.

Here, something to bang together. There, something that explodes. Here, some dancing. There, bright colours and movement: remember those from your cot, and how they made you gurgle? Here, a big screen on which you might appear, if only you are colourful enough, and move a lot, and bang things together.

........

Through all the banging and crashing and firebombing and deafening, a sad subliminal message emerges. It is that promoters don't like, understand or trust their own game enough to make it the focus. They're scared that it is not engaging enough, and so, look over here, kids, and here, and here, anywhere but out there."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/sport-is-kidding-itself-20180119-h0l2v1.html

You have to get your product right and sell your product not fluff


Is he talking about Maria Sharapova?

[Messenger]

Import as much of this here as we can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25E5M0Vd5gI

(extended clip of Prix d'Amerique)

[arlington]

Import as much of this here as we can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25E5M0Vd5gI

(extended clip of Prix d'Amerique)

Relying on my form 3 French, did I interpret a big whip fine for Franck? Would nearly expect to have the race taken away if he got up here. I did notice some selective replay angles.

Lessons from this Franck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZlqd2Zp4tE

[Toohard]

https://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/8-21-18/vision-future.html

Read about the idea of a moving grandstand

[Dot]

Although this article refers specifically to half mile tracks I think there is a message in it for all tracks

https://harnessracingupdate.com/2018/08/26/the-business-of-betting/

[Messenger]

A good article Dot - you would have thought it was written in Oz

[Messenger]

Interesting to see 3 heats of 7 for the Battle of the Claimers at Melton tomorrow night instead of 2 heats of 10/11 - obviously the number crunchers disagree with Bob Pandolfo in regards to full fields (see post 49)

[alphastud]

Help Bankstown Paceway. - recently, they've done a terrific job increasing field sizes and races since with a few new initiatives (since the start of the August.)

Unfortunately, they were let down tonight by 1. a poor track that failed with a few mm of rain and 2. both the mobile barrier gate and reserve mobile barrier gate breaking down. The meeting was abandoned after a few races.

It's very frustrating to have your time wasted because of disruptions that could have been avoided.

They need to quickly improve the track surface and the camber. ... and better maintain the mobile barrier gates / cars.

The big draw card are the TUZA HR-X 3 horse float nominators giveaway and a group of the nicest old ladies offering scones, sandwiches and hot beverages to trainers, drivers and owners.

[Amlin]

Interesting to see 3 heats of 7 for the Battle of the Claimers at Melton tomorrow night instead of 2 heats of 10/11 - obviously the number crunchers disagree with Bob Pandolfo in regards to full fields (see post 49)

Better to get a cut of $45,000 turnover across three races than $40,000 across two perhaps

[gutwagon]

Bad luck for all the people like myself that don't bet on fields with less than 8 runners. Maybe they need to pay a place div back to 3rd for 7 horse fields.

[Messenger]

I hope Maryborough are providing entertainment or free afternoon tea between R5 and R6 today as there is over 40 mins between these two races even allowing for the running time of R5

To be fair, for the early birds there was less than 25 mins between R1 and R2

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MH100918&fromstate=vic

[gutwagon]

I have noticed that day meetings only get around 60% of the turnover of night meetings. So if we shifted the Monday day meetings in Vic to night meetings we would increase turnover . Is it just Sky racing that wont allow night meetings on Mondays ? Would make sense to always have a night meeting and only the second meeting of the day be during the day.

[Messenger]

Is Mondays Doggies night/territory?

[gutwagon]

Is Mondays Doggies night/territory?
Every night seems to be doggy night. We can't just let them have Monday nights.
I see HRV bragging that turnover was up at the Breeders Crown meeting compared to last years. Just shifting it from a day meeting to a night meeting should have increased turnover by more than what was achieved. Could hardly call that a win.

[Messenger]

Rick, I meant that I thought Monday (and Thursday) was a traditional doggies night and so you would have to convince Sky as sadly we rate behind the doggies now

[KTQ]

I was watching one of the races that was implicated in the NZ arrests today and I realised harness racing is just so ... dull. Compared to the Gallops' vibrant silks, grass and fashion, harness racing looks like it was filmed with a potato and aired through a black and white TV with a bent aerial.



How can you get excited about something that looks so goddam DATED? Millennials want flashy, new, bright, tech forward entertainment. Not some old man rambling off a bunch of horses going round and round in grey and off white.

[Messenger]

I was watching one of the races that was implicated in the NZ arrests today and I realised harness racing is just so ... dull. Compared to the Gallops' vibrant silks, grass and fashion, harness racing looks like it was filmed with a potato and aired through a black and white TV with a bent aerial.



How can you get excited about something that looks so goddam DATED? Millennials want flashy, new, bright, tech forward entertainment. Not some old man rambling off a bunch of horses going round and round in grey and off white.

And Australia doesn't even have as many close ups as NZ does (thanks to their split screen). I have always said that the gallop's green grass is a much better backdrop than grit.
The gallops without all the gear let you see that horses are beautiful animals but close-ups of our trotters should be able to come close. Some stables have introduced more colour like the Tritton's fluoro pink
I have found watching Vic races in a much higher definition (and assisted by my computer screen being smaller and me closer) a big improvement on Sky

[Dot]

As someone on a NA forum wrote of harness racing in its heyday: "harness racing was the light and colour of an otherwise dreary black and white world, nowadays people live everyday in a technicolor fantasy world and it's hard to compete"

[Big K]

Harness Racing directors and controllers have been asleep at the wheel for far too long in my opinion, I always thought harness was the better spectacle as compared to the gallops when watched live, but I would have to agree that on tv it looks dull and pretty boring and takes an eternity to complete. What to do about it!!..well my thoughts are that we need some straight line racing over distances from 1000mt upwards..maybe a J type track for the long distances..Give every horse of the same ability a chance and not be blocked at any stage. Drivers to have flashing lights on their helmets and activated at the 600mt mark,,blue if their drive is travelling well in running..red if it's struggling..least its something the punter can see(haha). Some computer graphics guy who can make the colour of the track anything he want when viewed on tv..Yea put some more colour into the game!!..at least try some bloody thing than what we're got now..just deteriorating away..no interest from all my mates who only bet on the Gallops or the dogs..makes me feel sad to see the way it's all going..surely we can help ourselves!!..Was really interested in the read from Mildura Harness Club and their implementation of harness racing onto the school there..that classes were going on outings to see the industry at work..from trainers and drivers to how the club operates and race night procedures..something every club in Australia should be looking at. Well if nothing else a good laugh but hey!! lets try to get the punters interested again before it's too late!!

[Amlin]

For some reason in my mind I see trots in a straight line over 1000m being more of a spectacle than if you ran a lap of a 1000m oval for example.

Maybe more moves, horses spread across track rather than being held back to avoid getting caught deep on the bends?

[Messenger]

I don't know - I always find the straight six races at the gallops the least interesting especially the camera work

[Beltane]

One way to get rid of the sprint lane.

[gutwagon]

Remember the rumors years ago about a 1 mile straight track being built at Maryborough !

[Richard prior]

I think it’s got merit

[Dot]

Yes, and if I recall it was to be solely for TV viewing and wagering, no spectator facilities.

Be like watching the straights at Menangle only longer.

[Danno]

different generations with different expectations, the "trots" spectacle factor unique in the Melbourne Showgrounds days, as a teenager I raced on the tight circuits of Newcastle, Maitland and the most difficult of all in our part of the world, Tamworth, the crowds were ten deep right around the circumference of the track, the stands were packed......there was zero televised runs of these races and very limited betting opportunities, because the TAB up the road ( or in the next town) shut at 6.00pm.

things have changed, as they will, however ,that said, the "racing channels" give our game a very poor representation, almost criminal to be honest and forthright, so close to criminal it demands investigation, but who has heard a peep out our administration? the complaints continue to fall on apparently deaf ears with the result the further demise of our exposure and with it potential earnings.

A number of people have been poached by our main competitor in the last 30 years that have been sorely missed by us and reaped rewards for their new employers........when are we going to acknowledge the ability of leaders when we find them rather than let them go in the face of competition!?

[JanellePeter]

Hi
We are new to the forum but have analysed and punted on harness racing for some time. We have been looking for somewhere to share the ideas on how to improve harness racing. Note these ideas come from a punters perspective:
1. Do away with Standing starts and Trot gait racing. We have many stats and rarely bother betting in these races due to the high percentage of breaks. I am sure we can all appreciate the frustration of watching a race only to see your horse rare at the start or not even make the start. Breaks in MS pacers are around 5% compared to over 35% in SS Trotts. It turns people off. It also makes it a lot easier to analyse races if you restrict it to pacers only.
2. Try some races without the mobile gates and get them to start in rail and 1 wide formation to start the race. It is very frustrating spending time figuring out who should lead a race only to see a completely different configuration once the gate moves away. Let's try starting the race with No1 leading, No2 outside leader, No 3 behind leader, No 4 1 out 1 back etc. At least you know the order of racing, horses shouldn't get unluckily trapped wide which happens in 90% of all races. The races end up in a formation so why not try starting in formation.
3. Tracks need consideration. Unlike gallops horses on some tracks can't win from anywhere. We should limit the number of tracks used and spend money to have them setup properly. Hobart is one of our favoured tracks. It contains a sprint lane (this is a must for fair racing in our opinion), The super-evaluation or chamfer on the bends is good which improves speed around the bends and uses less energy when horses need to go wide, and it has a long straight giving horses a chance to find a running line and compete. Tracks with home straights less than 100m are terrible. Add in no sprint lane and you see a very high percent of leaders winning. Its a race to the first corner. As we have read on this forum the attendance at tracks is never going to go up because people can view everything from their lounge room. We would love to see only 5 tracks in NSW within a fairly close proximity to each other. We can only imagine how much travel the horses and drivers etc have to do each week to get around to every different tracks. This could create a Harness Racing Hub for NSW.

Sorry if we are covering old ground.

[Greg Hando]

JanellePeter where would you have the tracks located for the NSW harness hub and which tracks have straights of less than 100 mts ?

[Messenger]

Interesting thoughts Janelle and Peter

I have only ever bet on pacers so I should support your pacing only idea but I cannot bring myself to. You would be aware that Trotters is all they have in Europe and Victoria have gone down the trotting road to cash in on French coverage of our races. Trotting is as big as Racing in France while in the USA where they have mostly pacing - they are struggling like us.

I could support your starting formation idea as a form of handicapping (which the death of stand start racing has made difficult) but not because you want to know how the horses will settle in all races - next you will want to know what order they will cross the line in ;)

There is hardly a track in Victoria that does not have a straight of at least 185m (Warragul is an exception). IMO we still need attendees as TV/App viewers only are unlikely to buy horses and without them we have no racing. Even though every state has half their population in the metro areas if you restrict your racing to those areas only you are semi-ignoring the other half of the population - the rural 'horsey' people. Country racing is the lifeblood of gallops racing and harness

Just my thoughts and I look forward to more from you guys

[JanellePeter]

Thanks for the replies.

Tracks with straights < 100m are Broken Hill, Burnie and Scottsdale - Not used too often thank goodness but it should have been more a general statement. Straights < 150m are bad enough and there are plenty of them. We like races where the better horse can win. Not just the horse in the better position.

We are not as familiar with Victoria's tracks. Only know Melton and Ballarat and these are good tracks. We spend a lot of time thinking about how to give each horse the best chance to win. Even having lanes in the home straight crossed our mind. The leader would need to fan 3 wide at the final bend opening up 2 lanes to the inside. Would need to have a lane line on the ground that could spook a horse.

We both grew up in the country. The smaller time horses trainers would have to decide if there horse was good enough to complete otherwise that would be left to the show races. We like it when they put trots on at the local shows. No idea where to create a hub. Currently in NSW we prefer Bathurst, Newcastle, Goulburn tracks. We don't like Menangle that much as a betting track.

We also like having some pace in the races so you don't get 70% leaders winning. Technology could have this with red lights around the track if the leaders are going too slow. Need the handicappers to determine the required quarters or speed. 3 red lights and the driver gets fined and horse put outside mobile draw in next start or banned from leading future races (Or some real penalty).

[Messenger]

I'm afraid that most of my knowledge is Vic based guys and the only regularly used track in Vic with a straight < 183m are Echuca = 164 and Warragul = 147

Most tracks (except Ballarat) have a sprint lane that allows 2 horses to go inside the leader so that is pretty much the equivalent of your leader having to fan 3 wide

In Victoria the drivers are required to run the first 800m of the last mile in < 65 secs or they are fined but with the improvement in times on most tracks this is fairly leisurely nowadays

[Dot]

Hi
We are new to the forum but have analysed and punted on harness racing for some time. We have been looking for somewhere to share the ideas on how to improve harness racing. Note these ideas come from a punters perspective:
1. Do away with Standing starts and Trot gait racing. We have many stats and rarely bother betting in these races due to the high percentage of breaks. I am sure we can all appreciate the frustration of watching a race only to see your horse rare at the start or not even make the start. Breaks in MS pacers are around 5% compared to over 35% in SS Trotts. It turns people off. It also makes it a lot easier to analyse races if you restrict it to pacers only.
2. Try some races without the mobile gates and get them to start in rail and 1 wide formation to start the race. It is very frustrating spending time figuring out who should lead a race only to see a completely different configuration once the gate moves away. Let's try starting the race with No1 leading, No2 outside leader, No 3 behind leader, No 4 1 out 1 back etc. At least you know the order of racing, horses shouldn't get unluckily trapped wide which happens in 90% of all races. The races end up in a formation so why not try starting in formation.
3. Tracks need consideration. Unlike gallops horses on some tracks can't win from anywhere. We should limit the number of tracks used and spend money to have them setup properly. Hobart is one of our favoured tracks. It contains a sprint lane (this is a must for fair racing in our opinion), The super-evaluation or chamfer on the bends is good which improves speed around the bends and uses less energy when horses need to go wide, and it has a long straight giving horses a chance to find a running line and compete. Tracks with home straights less than 100m are terrible. Add in no sprint lane and you see a very high percent of leaders winning. Its a race to the first corner. As we have read on this forum the attendance at tracks is never going to go up because people can view everything from their lounge room. We would love to see only 5 tracks in NSW within a fairly close proximity to each other. We can only imagine how much travel the horses and drivers etc have to do each week to get around to every different tracks. This could create a Harness Racing Hub for NSW.

Sorry if we are covering old ground.

Welcome J&P. I know you have prefaced your remarks as from the view of the punter, however the industry is so much more then just punting. As Kev has said the trotter is the growth sector of the industry. Doing away with the trotter ( and by default the vast majority of standing starts) would see something I imagine now in the order of 25% of the value of the industry and reduce its net worth in Vic at least by around $100m. Some of this maybe reinvested in pacers but I expect the majority would be lost to the industry, and whilst there may be an increase on turnover on pacing races the end result would be an overall reduction in turnover as a result of fewer races.

Trotting races do turn over less then pacing races, however at the lower levels trot races frequently have a higher number of starters, and at the elite level races have lower prizemoney then pacing races so trots ( as opposed to pacing participants) whilst generating lesser returns are also receiving less in return.

Gallops punters don't appear to struggle to analyse the form between sprint, middle distance, and staying ( and occasionally jumps) races which actually have a number of runners participating through more then one category whilst trotters rarely compete against pacers so I don't see how doing away with trotters makes analysing pacing races easier. To take that concept to the extreme, should we be racing pacers only on identical tracks at exactly the same distance to make it easier to analyse?

As for point 2 I actually suggested that ( but using the mobile gate) to David Martin some 18months ago, as an alternative handicapping method to standing starts given the reducing horse population meant increasing disparity in the abilities of the horses in a field. Whilst not suggesting replacing the conventional mobile start for all races, this form of start does offer better handicapping opportunities and negates gatespeed if the field is accelerated to race speed before the gate pulls away which may in turn lead to more "blanket" finishes. Only way to know is to trial it, and that's certainly a lot easier then building a mile straight track ( as suggested elsewhere ) and trialing that!!

Whilst not contained in a single hub it does appear that NSW is evolving towards a limited number of tracks, distance and travel is a consideration, and whilst times are a changing historically a reduction in the number of tracks has always resulted in a corresponding decline in the number of participants and horses.

[gutwagon]

Janellepeter, ideas 1 & 2 would just lead to odds on favs in every race and most of them winning. Victoria has too many trotters to just scrap them, it's up to punters to know who will gallop and this increases value in the payouts.
Idea 3 is ok except I would scrap the sprint lanes. Victoria has improved the camber on most of its tracks and extended as many as possible. Forcing horses to run at minimum speeds just takes tactics out of racing. Most horses come from the country areas and every area deserves a track. You basically want to know who is going to win every race before it even starts !

I would bring back standing starts, have no minimum first half times and no sprint lanes and at least one 1400m track in Vic.

[JanellePeter]

Thanks for the input. Good discussion and it does help us understand a few things.
Love to see option 2 given a go as a handicapping mechanism.
If Trots are here to stay then someone needs to figure how to improve the horses breaking gait.

[JanellePeter]

Forgot to mention we would really like to see drone footage in races. We have a son right into these. They self stabilise and can easily travel at the speed of a pacer.
We've seen footage at speed and it looks cool. You can set a predetermined flight path and adjust speed to suit race during the race.
Footage from about 20m ahead of the field looking back at them from about 15m up would be great. Stewards might find it interesting to view as well.

[Messenger]

As long as the horses aren't spooked, I reckon that would be great too J&P - I think the gallops use it a fair bit (Ch7) especially for the start of races and it really shows you what is going on better than any other camera angle - I think there positioning is however somewhat of an overhead rear-view which would eliminate spooking the horses

[Messenger]

In today's Age, Michael Lynch writing about the Winx Factor providing a record 22k crowd for the Turnbull Stakes writes that the lesson to be learnt is

If racing people are worried about falling attendances they should realise the horses need to be made the stars of the show. Marketing should focus on them, and to a lesser extent the jockeys. They will attract not just punters but newcomers.

Black Caviar did it, and so does Winx. It’s a far better way to sell the sport than as it so often is promoted these days, as an all-day drinkathon or as a pick-up joint, a sort of highcolour, daytime nightclub with the racing merely as a backdrop

http://todayspaper.smedia.com.au/theage/TranslateArticle.aspx?doc=AGE%2F2018%2F10%2F08&entity=ar04504

IMO the same lesson applies to Harness

[Messenger]

Another view from Richard Hinds on the ABC website

.....But such interest in a champion horse is, increasingly, an exception to general disinterest in racing itself, as opposed to interest in event-going and who-are-you-wearing fashion marquees.

Tellingly, The Everest field does not contain a single horse that is more noteworthy or eye-catching for the non-racing enthusiast than the prizemoney.

But then, most years, neither does the Melbourne Cup in which the fields are now almost exclusively comprised of "foreign raiders", or imports re-badged as locals by their new Aussie owners and trainers.

It is easy to mock The Everest as the gauche and possibly short-lived brainchild of Sydney racing authorities desperate to compete with their Melbourne rivals; even easier when the race is used to turn a revered international landmark into a lamentable billboard at the screeching insistence of an influential shock jock.

But perhaps a multi-million-dollar buy-your-start race over 1200 metres advertised on a once-revered site at the vocal insistence of a wealthy, well-connected media insider is as reflective of contemporary Australia as a modest 3200 metres handicap once was.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-08/opera-house-controversy-over-everest-race-overshadows-big-issue/10348888?section=sport

[KTQ]

While the quality of the Everest field may not be topnotch, the publicity brought about by the Alan Jones Opera House game surely drove some of the 40,000 strong crowd with I'm sure a couple of those attendees now being converts. We could do something similar for harness racing; heaven knows harness really needs to get in on some eyecatching marketing.



I posted this to twitter in a birdsnest mess of tweets but let's close down the Harbour Bridge and cover it in grit and sand or close off a key beach and hold a straight track harness racing meeting. The public can vote on which horses race each other in heats and it'll be a sudden death event culminating in a grand final with number of qualifying horses depending on how wide the track is. Similar events can be held in Perth and Melbourne on the same day with live crosses between the tracks. Either Parkdale or Chelsea beach in Melb, Dee Why or Collaroy in Syd and Scarborough in Perth. Kwinana Freeway or St Kilda Road. Grand stands and big screens along the entire track with sound metres to measure the crowd's cheers, Smoken Up and other old champ cameos, show bags, facepainting, harness driving simulators, horse gearing up speed contests. Even a contest for people to win shares in some horses. They could easily just have a stall where you can find out more information on how to join a syndicate (on that note, why don't they set up stalls at street markets with this?)



We can go overboard with the publicity starting with a tease campaign; a float at mardi gras, some horse shaped fireworks on NYE or at the Sydney show, then start to build momentum with a superboard billboard campaign and some projections on main buildings, station takeovers and TV integrations, social media influencers etc.



Brands can sponsor horses and the driver colours can be the brand's colours to bring in some money. They can even rename the horses slightly for the race eg Carlas Pixar, Tiger Airways Tara, Chicago The Musical Bull.



We'll make this a yearly event and hold it at different landmarks or places every year.



I'm not even joking.

[Messenger]

Interesting Katie. Permission and OHS for participants and crowd would be the biggest problems to solve (forgetting cost here). They/government would consider it for the gallops - I am not sure that they would for us
The other concern would be whether it has any all year round spin off value as we are not a beach racing sport
The traditional races such as The Cup have history and crowd pulling power - that may be so for the Everest one day, right now IMO they only have it because they have $13m (attracts people's interest like a Tattslotto jackpot)
We would need $10m for prizemoney and as much for costs

I agree we have to think big - maybe test it out by seeing if somewhere like Ballarat could pull it off in their Main St

[Dot]

I expect you to get cracking on that as soon as you get home Katie. I don't know if the crowd was any bigger for the Everest this year then last after Jones rant, but it did galvanise people, mostly from the not interested crowd before the race, and got media coverage for the Everest in New York and London. I guess it depends on if you think all publicity is good publicity, or not.....

The passage the cup has taken Kev, with it being now predominantly or completely filled with temporary or permanently imported stayers is actually said to be decreasing the interest amongst Australians, though no doubt they will still turn up in droves on the day, but overseas interest is increasing but there's is certainly discenting opinions if this is good for Australian racing overall, with large amounts of money being invested offshore and not in the Australain industry in pursuit of winning the cup.

Also it depends on where you are Kev, we are both a beach and road racing sport in various parts of Europe. There are beach races if I recall in Germany and/or The Netherlands in the north and in Ireland, where they lay out and 800m oval track on the sand at low tide. Also the Irish, (under saddle) and the Dutch have road racing, the Dutch I think have two horse "drag" races on the Main Street somewhere through a village I think.

Not suggesting the logistics of doing this would be easy but if we could create a similar annual event on sand or the roads it could be a good promotional event for us and be a stepping stone to draw people into more conventional harness racing.

[Dot]

Oh, and I think the original Everest concept looked at closing the harbour bridge and running it there.

[KTQ]

33,000 last year. 40,000 this year. The fact is that The Everest is just another event for gallops goers to attend - and in big numbers. This is the richest race, but there's the Melbourne Cup, and Oaks Day and Caulfield Cup and Cox Plate and Caulfield Guineas. Yet, how many people knew about the Vic Cup for harness.

The point is to get people there. You don't have to agree but whether they're there for the fashion, the drinks or the races, at least they're there and betting. Then you inject some engagement into the people who are interested with 'win a share of a trotter' or 'see if you can gear this plastic horse up quicker than your buddy' - film that and put it on Youtube or Facebook - people will laugh, other people will wonder what this video is all about and et voila! You have 1 person more aware that harness exists than previously. And I repeat this again, there should be 'sign up for a syndication' information tents at every street market.

Know what we used to have at our school's fete every year? Pony rides. There should be pony drives at events and then have a sign up tent for kids who would like to race one season. Remove the barriers to participation, and there's another industry participant.

how many people here are involved in harness because 'Dad used to take me as a kid'. Well here we are, Dad can take the new generation to the beach races every year. and then if you hand those people a free meal voucher for Menangle or Melton or wherever, the family will go to more races.

oh and here's my last thought. the gallops are glamorous. Owners wearing suits or hats and perfect makeup and hair. Women LOVE getting dressed up. Whereas old Bob and his bogan son get the harness winning photo dressed in a tshirt and boardshorts half the time. Harness used to be for the battler back when parents would buy takeaway once a fortnight and you'd wear hand me downs and drive an old rust bucket car with 5 kids crammed in the back, but there is a new generation now who want glamour. Millenials and the next generation have expendable income and I tell you, as a millenial myself, I too want to feel like I'm surrounded by lovely people when I go out.

[KTQ]

We need The Everest thinktank working on harness. No 'oh that'll be too expensive' or 'that's too hard' or 'we haven't done that before, it won't work' but more, how about this insanely crazy idea. Let's propose it, simply for the media coverage.

I tell you Dot, if there was a clear way to put forward these ideas, I would. I'll put together a proposal but if it's not even going to be read, then there's no point. We need some thinkers and risk takers on the board.

[KTQ]

Also, I'd like to know who the media planning/buying agency and creative agency are for Gloucester Park, and the other tracks. GP spent $750,000 in marketing in 2016/2017. As a media planner by trade, I would love to know what their media strategy and recommendation looks like, the results they're seeing, and what they consider success. If attendance YOY isn't up, I consider that a fail and I'm not sure if it was, considering admission profits were down $35,000.

[Messenger]

oh and here's my last thought. the gallops are glamorous. Owners wearing suits or hats and perfect makeup and hair. Women LOVE getting dressed up. Whereas old Bob and his bogan son get the harness winning photo dressed in a tshirt and boardshorts half the time. Harness used to be for the battler back when parents would buy takeaway once a fortnight and you'd wear hand me downs and drive an old rust bucket car with 5 kids crammed in the back, but there is a new generation now who want glamour. Millenials and the next generation have expendable income and I tell you, as a millenial myself, I too want to feel like I'm surrounded by lovely people when I go out.

What you meant to say is "lovely looking" people Katie. Dress standards and opinions is a very individual thing but I do know that Ray Chaplin of Equine Excellence has been banging on about the need to attract the 'top end of town' in submissions to past administrations for a couple of decades - I am not sure he always got a reply. It of course requires facilities that suggest the requiremnent to doll up

Sport entertainment has changed in some codes and we have to know our market. I have enjoyed suiting up for the races on occasions but also know on one of those occasions I never saw a race other than on a monitor (Flemington's old members dining room). Like you have said many of us oldies (not you) are 'Showgrounds' kids whose dads took us along to the trots - but they never wore a suit

PS I just realized your beach meets concept will be perfect for board shorts and T shirts

[gutwagon]

How about we start a little smaller. NZ has a lot of Harness racing on grass tracks. I'm not a fan of it but it would be great publicity if we could have one harness race each Saturday at Flemington (or wherever the main meet is) during the gallops meeting. We could attract a few of their fans over to the dark side.
Katie, my first thought about the Mardi Gras float was what type of horses would be on it ? Geldings and Rigs ?

[KTQ]

What you meant to say is "lovely looking" people Katie. Dress standards and opinions is a very individual thing but I do know that Ray Chaplin of Equine Excellence has been banging on about the need to attract the 'top end of town' in submissions to past administrations for a couple of decades - I am not sure he always got a reply. It of course requires facilities that suggest the requiremnent to doll up

Sport entertainment has changed in some codes and we have to know our market. I have enjoyed suiting up for the races on occasions but also know on one of those occasions I never saw a race other than on a monitor (Flemington's old members dining room). Like you have said many of us oldies (not you) are 'Showgrounds' kids whose dads took us along to the trots - but they never wore a suit

PS I just realized your beach meets concept will be perfect for board shorts and T shirts


I came off a little pompous, which isnt what I meant. My Dad is def blue collar and I don't think that people necessarily need to wear fascinators and suits, but at least a nice shirt.

[Showgrounds]

How about we start a little smaller. NZ has a lot of Harness racing on grass tracks. I'm not a fan of it but it would be great publicity if we could have one harness race each Saturday at Flemington (or wherever the main meet is) during the gallops meeting. We could attract a few of their fans over to the dark side.
Katie, my first thought about the Mardi Gras float was what type of horses would be on it ? Geldings and Rigs ?

Unfortunately, the Gay Reveler sire line has died out.

[Messenger]

An interesting article from the NZ about a Canadian syndicator with a couple of quotes that caught my eye

Over two years he spoke to everyday people in their homes and found the message around harness racing the same. “I love horses, I like racing but I don’t come to the track because I don’t gamble.”

“We have become so focused on advertising the gambling and wagering side of the sport, that we don’t sell the experience and the one thing that most people actually love – the horses.

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/MacDonald-Seminars-receive-positive-response

[Messenger]

Another couple of paragraphs I meant to quote as they make so much sense especially when you compare how affordable harness is compared to the gallops

“At the moment around two percent of your population attended race meetings last year. Instead of trying to saturate that market and make that two percent wager more, why not try and get the other 98 percent onboard?

“You can do that by utilizing the unique opportunity we have in harness racing. Get them to fall in love with the sport by making them part of the story. Give them the opportunity to fall in love by giving them value and affordable options, and I can guarantee they’ll come to the tracks, and they’ll bring their family and friends to the track too.

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/MacDonald-Seminars-receive-positive-response

[Dot]

Yes some interesting and pertinent comments from Anthony McDonald. With Casinos (pokies) being almost universally co located with racetracks in North America racing is linked inextricably with gambling in many people's minds there and that no doubt is a barrier to some attending races. I presuming fractional ownership is the same as syndication (?) which we already do here but there's is no doubt an opportunity to do it better then we have been.

Unless I read it wrong I took Anthony's major message to be to get people involved in the ownership of horses which will then in turn boost racetrack attendances, which would seem to be the opposite of what many people have said here which is get people to the track which will then get them into ownership.

[Messenger]

Unless I read it wrong I took Anthony's major message to be to get people involved in the ownership of horses which will then in turn boost racetrack attendances, which would seem to be the opposite of what many people have said here which is get people to the track which will then get them into ownership.

It would seem to be what he is saying Dot, but I am firmly in the other camp - get them to the track first and then joining a syndicate could be on the cards. Unless he is talking about people who love horses and follow the sport on the media (where you place your syndication ads). If we had fantastic media cover it could be a possibility - I would liken it to a person who follows their footy team on TV and supports them by buying a membership even though they never go to any games

[gutwagon]

Kevin, I agree with those quotes 100% and have been saying so for ages .
Two trainers have told me that they think that syndication will boost our sport, both tried to arrange some and were quickly told by HRV to stop. All syndicates have to be organized via HRV and they both gave up due to it being too complicated. I don't know anything about starting a syndicate via HRV but they should be making it very simple and easy. They should be pushing it hard, not hindering people. It has become too expensive for most people to own and pay for training a horse so groups of friends getting together is the only way for the horse population to grow.
I know we don't want a situation like the gallops have where people buy a yearling for $100,000 and syndicate it out for $250,000. But it needs to be made very easy and should be encouraged by HRV.

[KTQ]

They should have a section in the website where you can say, I want to join a syndicate with some fun engaged people and I dont know anyone. Please set me up with other people who too want to join a syndicate. . And trainers can say, I have this horse. Heres what I expect him to be in terms of ability, I'd like to sell 5 shares.

Match making for new owners

[KTQ]

I love the idea of this brainstorm, ideas discussion that will happen ID eve in Vic. Every state needs it. Attendees should be split into groups of 6 with one committee person in each team to moderate. Everyone brainstorms and the best 2 ideas from each team then get presented to the larger group. I hope that's the setting to really get brain juice flowing

[Messenger]

A few months back there were ownership shares being offered on thetrots.com as you will see from the last post in this forum thread

http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?8910-Syndicates

and you could see the detailed information that the trainers were supplying

But going to it just now

http://www.trotsownthemoment.com.au/

there is nothing there/listed including an empty 'latest news' box

Katie, I think trainers advertising horses following the fairly strict guidelines is the way we have to go to ensure no one is taken advantage of

[Dot]

Harness racing does not get mainstream media coverage in NA Kev as quite a few commentators were lamenting when Lazarus featured in the nightly news in NZ so I doubt that "the stable" achieved success for its fractional ownership model via advertising in the papers or other mainstream media. I suspect utilising social media effectively had a great deal to do with getting their message across to prospective owners, and then those owners themselves continued to spread the message.

And it seems that in this day and age, in Canada at least, love the horse first and the sport second maybe a more effective message to sell the public an interest in what we do.

Australia does have very strict consumer protection laws and that's certainly not a bad thing but perhaps racing administrators, gallops and harness, need to work with ASIC and the government to exempt racehorses and racehorse shares of a limited value from these laws.

In other words horses of a value no greater then a predetermined set limit, and/or shares of a similar predetermined limited value are not considered an investment purchase but are purchased for the purposes of entertainment and can be bought and sold more freely then shares in higher value animals which remain an "investment" and subject to ASIC requirements, whilst horses purchased for "entertainment" are governed by rules determined and administered by racing's integrity departments.

Conceivably that could improve returns to more "grass roots" breeders in both codes and bolster sales in the lower to mid price bracket at the sales.

[arlington]

It's not HRV that's making syndication harder but as to the reasons why you have to go through HRV, an ASIC approved lead regulator, here's some light reading. https://www.qric.qld.gov.au/licensing-and-ownership/harness/syndication/ click on the link to the Regulatory Guide, and with this one you'll find the submission HRA put to ASIC https://asic.gov.au/regulatory-resources/find-a-document/consultation-papers/cp-242-remaking-asic-class-orders-on-horse-racing-syndicates-and-horse-breeding-schemes/

As a lead regulator I'm not sure how far/much you can promote but I do know HRV have publicised quite widely, if you'd like to get into syndication contact them for assistance.

[Messenger]

Maybe there is a problem with thetrots site as it surprises me that there are no shares in horses being advertised

[arlington]

May have something to do with what you've mentioned previously Kev, the 'if not fully subscribed after 6 months' thing?
I wonder if HRV as a lead regulator are allowed to advertise?

[gutwagon]

The problem seems to be that they are being classed as "Investment schemes". They clearly are not as nobody expects to make a profit, just have some fun with a small chance of a profit .

[Messenger]

The ruling could also have to do with horses being owned by superannuation trusts

[Messenger]

The new HRV CEO is wanting your ideas starting at Cranbourne on Dec 16

“When I go around and talk to the participants it will be great to find out what they want to see. What can we do to incentivise breeding? Race programming – we need to be bold and innovative. What does the industry want to see? Wagering, what do we do in terms of our licence going forward? It’s all up for discussion.”

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/shackles-are-off-hrv-ceo-implores-team-to-think-big/

[gutwagon]

Why couldn't HRV get a Wayville type meeting at the Showgrounds ? Do they still have a grandstand ?

[Mighty Atom]

Why couldn't HRV get a Wayville type meeting at the Showgrounds ? Do they still have a grandstand ?

Can't believe they used to hold Inter Dominion series on that track!

[Messenger]

I couldn't find it under Tracks
Is it 500m?

[Messenger]

Found answer in 2017 thread
503m

http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?11201-Trots-Returning-to-Wayville-Showgrounds-October-27&highlight=Wayville

[Toohard]

Went over for a look. Told not as big a crowd as the 1st one but big enough to create some noise and atmosphere.

Probably not the best horses on show but don't think anyone cared. Certainly showcased the skills of all the drivers that participated. Lance Justice showing exactly what was needed winning the first 2 races. Believe Wayne Hills Dad drove there as did his Grandfather so was cool to see him get a win there too.

Spoke to lots of people who used to go there before the track was closed. Couple that were there when Cardigan Bay won the Interdominion final back in 1963 in front of 45,000 people. Brought back some memories of my early days involvement going to the Showgrounds in Melbourne too.

Taken out to Gawler Friday. Went to the dog track to watch a couple (dog track nearly same size as Wayville!). Saw the new trots track there. Told they start official races in March next year. Track (1000m) looks great. Only a short drive from Adelaide so hopefully it kicks on.

Hope also they do another Wayville next year. Or even more Wayville's next year. Maybe limit it to drivers who know the track to lower the chances of someone getting hurt.

There was a modern timing board inside the track at Wayville. Showing the quarter mile splits as they do. It seemed a bit out of place (the 1/4 splits were virtually lap times) given the times meant nothing. Contrasted with the old stands and buildings that remain. Guess served as a reminder of what the sport has become and the obsession with times.

Me... I just an old fella that loves the sport and have followed it for years. If asked to choose between today's version and the one of yesteryear... give me the Wayville's and the spirit of Cardigan Bay any day.

[boondocks]

Four Group races- leader- behind leader, quinella all of them.
Underwhelming, as an American in the 90’s who studied the industry and made many great
suggestions wrote,”...harness racing is not interesting enough.” i wonder if any new people were attracted to the sport tonight.
The racing code that was the best live spectacle, is now the most boring on screen. So little change of positions in races. Drivers now now how to rate their horses on bigger tracks so coming round the field is extremely difficult.

In the spirit of brainstorming how can we make racing more interesting ?No right or wrong just creative thinking. Sometimes the an idea that initially looks ridiculous works out the most workable.In the spirit:
- prize money for the horse in front at the bell

[Messenger]

Hunter Cup night
Well noted Terry but it was actually six Group races leader-behind leader quinella
Some may say the track/weather contributed but I agree
The racing code that was the best live spectacle, is now the most boring on screen.

I am moving these posts to a brainstorming thread

[Messenger]

One idea specific to Melton. Would lengthening the track to 1140m or 1240m - adding 50/100m to each straight but keeping the bends the same so that the horses are not much further away, make it less leader dominated?

The other question might be - what type of convert are admin/we looking for? A punter could be converted by a collect - are predictable tracks actually what they like
From what I had refreshed in my mind at Stawell recently - the attendee is probably there for the overall package but I have to admit, it may even be more the offtrack, so that is what is important. In which case, close proximity to the horses (small track?) or simply great video coverage of the race may be part of this (but secondary to comfort, dining etc etc)

[gutwagon]

I think sprint lanes and all mobile starts have taken away the excitement .

[Messenger]

LOL, just realized that saying the attendee may be there for the offtrack experience says that the ontrack experience is probably in big trouble
Mind you, I am not saying that you can afford to neglect the offtrack experience - there is a lot of time between races

AND Terry is not actually talking about on track he is talking about harness being boring on screen - so little change of positions in races

It has to be said that this can also be said of the gallops until they approach the home turn. Maybe looking at horses galloping on green grass with little more than a jockey on their back just looks more interesting/aesthetically pleasing

[gutwagon]

I was listening to the RSN carnival digital radio station last night and the coverage was excellent. Lots of interviews and non stop information and just the Melton races. More of this would be good. Trots vision needs to be more like that.

[Messenger]

Trots Vision was like that last night - once I tuned in for the first Gp race, I just left it on - there was only a briefish (new word - not type of fish) period between races with no sound but we had a fixed shot inside the horse stalls

Vision had Hamilton, Graham, Bonnington and Auber

[gutwagon]

Trots Vision just constantly freezes for me while sky works fine. Auber is excellent but I couldn't listen to the other 3 !

[Messenger]

They're all fine by me, I am guessing Gareth Hall was one of the mainstays of RSN's coverage, he and all his "mates" used to irk me so I guess you will never please all of the people all of the time

Getting back to the reason why I/Terry have resurrected this thread ie How do we make the racing product more attractive

I don't know about giving prizemoney to the leader at the bell, it seems a bit gimmicky and would have to involve a certain % being returned to the winner for every position you slipped down the field or else a runner could make a ridiculous/suicidal run to the bell
Like I said, no mid race moves does not seem to be a problem for the gallops but we do want exciting finishes so despite my love of small tracks for attendee excitement - I would consider longer straights ie long skinny tracks

[gutwagon]

I think the best way to improve the sport is to get people back to the tracks. Of course that is not easy.
I spent some time at some NSW clubs over the holidays (RSL and Bowling clubs), I noticed that the main way that they pack these clubs out on certain nights is by having members draws and raffles .
The members draws have a cash prize that jackpots each week until it goes off, often going over $10,000. A members number is drawn out and they must be in the club at the time to claim the prize.
In the lead up to the main draw they draw raffle prizes (meat trays, fuel vouchers) . It $5 to enter the raffle. Prizes are from sponsors, local businesses etc.
This brings in people who have a meal, play the pokies, drink and stay for the musical entertainment. It has been working well for years and attracts a lot of retired people who have plenty of disposable income.
Why cant trotting clubs try similar things , a raffle after each race and a members draw before the last race . Member must be on course and have at least one betting ticket.

Got to be worth a try. HRV could put in $1000 to the members draw each meeting.

[aussiebreno]

I think the best way to improve the sport is to get people back to the tracks. Of course that is not easy.
I spent some time at some NSW clubs over the holidays (RSL and Bowling clubs), I noticed that the main way that they pack these clubs out on certain nights is by having members draws and raffles .
The members draws have a cash prize that jackpots each week until it goes off, often going over $10,000. A members number is drawn out and they must be in the club at the time to claim the prize.
In the lead up to the main draw they draw raffle prizes (meat trays, fuel vouchers) . It $5 to enter the raffle. Prizes are from sponsors, local businesses etc.
This brings in people who have a meal, play the pokies, drink and stay for the musical entertainment. It has been working well for years and attracts a lot of retired people who have plenty of disposable income.
Why cant trotting clubs try similar things , a raffle after each race and a members draw before the last race . Member must be on course and have at least one betting ticket.

Got to be worth a try. HRV could put in $1000 to the members draw each meeting.
Wagga has a Members draw!

Only thing I'd change is members draw needs to be at a random point in between race 1 and the last so people don't just rock up for an hour.

[Messenger]

I think the best way to improve the sport is to get people back to the tracks. Of course that is not easy.
I spent some time at some NSW clubs over the holidays (RSL and Bowling clubs), I noticed that the main way that they pack these clubs out on certain nights is by having members draws and raffles .
The members draws have a cash prize that jackpots each week until it goes off, often going over $10,000. A members number is drawn out and they must be in the club at the time to claim the prize.
In the lead up to the main draw they draw raffle prizes (meat trays, fuel vouchers) . It $5 to enter the raffle. Prizes are from sponsors, local businesses etc.
This brings in people who have a meal, play the pokies, drink and stay for the musical entertainment. It has been working well for years and attracts a lot of retired people who have plenty of disposable income.
Why cant trotting clubs try similar things , a raffle after each race and a members draw before the last race . Member must be on course and have at least one betting ticket.

Got to be worth a try. HRV could put in $1000 to the members draw each meeting.

I reckon all the above needs to happen to make the offtrack attractive BUT it isn't exactly getting people there for the racing, sure they may become fans and it should be happening BUT what can we do to make people want to come to view the trots

One small thing - should the Hunter Cup be one week later so that it does not clash with the Tennis Finals weekend

[Yabbie]

I reckon all the above needs to happen to make the offtrack attractive BUT it isn't exactly getting people there for the racing, sure they may become fans and it should be happening BUT what can we do to make people want to come to view the trots





One small thing - should the Hunter Cup be one week later so that it does not clash with the Tennis Finals weekend


Tennis changed their dates this year - Hunter Cup has been that date for some time. Not saying it should not be looked at though.


HRV does not have any members and did not provide a members facility at Melton (although VHRC (owners association) is working on it and has been for some time). Those sorts of things take commitment to arrange and run every week but food for thought - I will raise it at a meeting.

[Messenger]

Not likely to be able to put Hunter Cup back as the Miracle Mile lead ups begin this weekend but if it is to be our equivalent of The Melbourne Cup maybe it would be better a weak earlier even

[Messenger]

Time between races needs to be reduced. I don't care who's fault it is/who controls it - just change it
If we want people coming to the trots we have to supply more action and less breaks, right now it is the equivalent of a football match in reverse ie imagine that the current football Quarters were the breaks in play and the time currently allocated for breaks, quarter time, half time etc were the only times the players played - that is pretty much what we provide
If a stable has consecutive runners they need the staff to separate duties, there may be more times when the trainer will not be able to be the trainer/driver - it is all doable

On Friday it is mostly 40 minutes between races at Horsham, I would be better off driving to the Echuca Cup where it is only 30 minutes

Today I went to Ararat gallops and although it was mostly 35 mins between races, with the mounting yard out the front and the high strung thoroughbreds there was plenty of action - there really did not seem that much time betweeen one lot leaving the mounting yard and the next lot arriving. With the standardbreds we have the advantage of them warming up on the track but it doesn't have the theatre of the thoroughbreds close up in the mounting yard and on returning. We don't have the large allotment of time where the horses are in the mounting yard so we don't need 35 minutes

[Danno]

Dear oh Dear Kev, bit frustrated are we? gotta say "the theatre of the thoroughbreds close up in the mounting yard and on returning" got me thinking just a little bit about what that actually looks like and how does one replicate it and for what purpose? We ain't the gallops and we never will be thank God.

Off this we also need to put more staff on to get races turned around more quickly..and it's all "doable"..... well of course it is mate but have we not thought about the master of everything racing??

I hope you are having a good lie down mate.

[Messenger]

Dear oh Dear Kev, bit frustrated are we? gotta say "the theatre of the thoroughbreds close up in the mounting yard and on returning" got me thinking just a little bit about what that actually looks like and how does one replicate it and for what purpose? We ain't the gallops and we never will be thank God.

Off this we also need to put more staff on to get races turned around more quickly..and it's all "doable"..... well of course it is mate but have we not thought about the master of everything racing??

I hope you are having a good lie down mate.

I will put it more simply then Dan - their horses look bloody beautiful in the mounting yard

The master of everything racing being the punt? Assuming that to be it, and assuming we want to compete with the doggies and gallops for our share, we will have to think about what makes their products more attractive to Sky/TAB and how to make our product more popular with the public would be part of that

I did have a good night's sleep before seeing this but thank you for caring

[Messenger]

Trots Vision just constantly freezes for me while sky works fine. Auber is excellent but I couldn't listen to the other 3 !

I encountered some of your Trots Vision problem today Rick
I wanted to watch the 2nd at Melton and could not be bothered firing up the Foxtel
First off there was no sound but I thought - I don't really need sound so I persisted
Down the back straight the final time, the screen goes black with the message An Error Has Occurred
I was only quick enough to see the last 50m on Foxtel and when I went back to Trots Vision and refreshed it, I saw a replay of the home straight (but still no sound)

[gutwagon]

I think Trots Vision is currently designed for a very small audience. Once too many people try to watch, it cant handle it, lack of bandwidth I think they call it. As with most things more $$$ is required to cope with more viewers. Probably controlled by Sky racing as they want the viewers to stay on Sky.

[gutwagon]

I know they occasionally bring back one former champion horse to lead a cup field on but how about some meetings where they bring back 5 or 6 former champs for people to see again.

They could promote the night and let people get up close to them , get selfies etc. Might bring back a few fans that have stopped coming to the track.
It will be easier to get former fans back than create new ones imo.

[Adaptor]

I know they occasionally bring back one former champion horse to lead a cup field on but how about some meetings where they bring back 5 or 6 former champs for people to see again.

They could promote the night and let people get up close to them , get selfies etc. Might bring back a few fans that have stopped coming to the track.
It will be easier to get former fans back than create new ones imo.

Rick:
Need suggestions here:
I know that Sokyola and Smoken Up are well looked after at Lance's place. What others do you have in mind?
Lenny's at stud in NSW but The HERO horses are seen often at major events.

[gutwagon]

Noel, at the suitable time of the year they could parade the ones that have gone to stud. It could bring them some extra mares.
As for a list of others I will need some time. Many would be in the HERO or other programs so they would be available, but personally I want to see them paraded ,not with a rider on board.

[Messenger]

44 minutes between Race 4 & 5 at Horsham on Monday :rolleyes:
(It has to be close to a record)
Surely they will have to be providing free devonshire tea for everybody to keep them around
(average between races for the day is 39 mins!)

Idea to improve racing - reduce these bloody times

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=HS090320

[aussiebreno]

Probably being able to see the horses for more than 2 seconds at Menangle would be a good thing. Lucky for the quality of horse flesh but first time I've been back since Blacks A Fakes ID and while the good horses made the night it's like watching thoroughbreds visually except our pacers aren't as quick and the atmosphere doesn't come close.

It's fine watching them on TV but maybe that angle needs to be pushed more with FTA and/or streaming service to get more viewers.

[Messenger]

A little hint to the states other than QLD
HRA always has 3 Video Highlights (stories) at the bottom of their home page
They are always episodes of the QLD program Weekend Winners

Get with it other states

http://www.harness.org.au/index.cfm

[Messenger]

I know there are some who do not think crowds are important but I am not one of those
And for the forseeable future it is a moot point with nobody allowed to attend
But looking to the future I wonder whether we need to avoid country meets coinciding with gallops meets
This week for example
Cranbourne trots today, Cranbourne gallops tomorrow
Terang trots Wednesday, Terang gallops Thursday

If crowds were allowed to attend, how many (locals) are likely to go to both?

[Halwes]

I'm new to this forum today. You'll get a few ideas from seeing my user name who I think was the greatest pacer I have seen. You'll also get some idea of how old I am.
I went in the late 60s to mid seventies. Going to the trots then of course saw bigger crowds and free to air on channel 7 every Saturday night at the Melb Showgrounds. I of course have no magic solutions re getting a higher profile. My opinion though is not advertise the trots on say regional free to airvuntil we see another absolute super star pacer ( or trotter). Harness didn't do that well years ago despite having them. I am not in touch with outstanding pacers today as I have not recommenced interest until now really. I think when we find another Halwes, ( forgive my bias and adoration we ( the industry) should plan a marketing plan/exercise, preferably via Tv but also plan a radio campaign too e.g. interview if the trainer on regional abc .. gradually do this . Of course everything today is about video, social media so that's the real focus. But in really think pacing meeting should start earlier and finish earlier if possible.. we don't want to drive home too late. Finally I like standing starts.. I know they have disappeared but handicaps with standing starts were exciting.
Certainly a few would be good.. you'd watch a better horse to see if he or she could still win from 36 or 48 yards ( 30 or 40 metres). My love for Halwes began when I saw him at the Melb Showgrounds in a standing start from 24 yards. When the starter let them go Halwes was facing the wrong way and by the time the driver turned him around he lost 100 metres . When he caught the last horse in the field, he was given a breather, then with a lap and a half to go he took off and went to the lead.. He went on to win by 15 yards easing up ( the measure then). It was the most sensational win I ever saw. I cried tears of joy . The Halwes story.. how he was scratched 50 mins before the 1969?? Interdominion final in NZ, after thrashing all others in all three heats was a silly decision by the owner . Everybody thought Halwes a cert in the final .. He was a super sprinter and could sustain that for an amazing length if time. So over 3000 metres on a big track , no horse was as good as he was Anyway, enough from me

[Messenger]

I agree Terry, when we have our next true Star we have to let the World know about it. The appropriately named Poster Boy may have filled those shoes but a mishap more or less straight after a MM win has not seen his return for nearly 12 months now

[Bonnie]

Poster Boy trialled at Ballarat this week. Led and won as he liked (only a field of 3). Last half: 55.9 last quarter 26.6 . Loved his day out and pulled up well. We went to the Stables the day prior to the trial, he looks magnificent and appreciated his sugar cubes. Unfortunately the timing of his race return is under a cloud because of Covid19.
There have been enquiries about a stud career : he is bred on the same cross as Captain Treacherous out of a mare who has twice been Victorian Broodmare of the a Year and last years Australian Broodmare if the Year.

[Halwes]

I agree Terry, when we have our next true Star we have to let the World know about it. The appropriately named Poster Boy may have filled those shoes but a mishap more or less straight after a MM win has not seen his return for nearly 12 months now

Thanks Kevin, I mentioned standing starts in my previous post, expressing why I liked them. Does harness still have standing starts?
They are exciting still to me.
Also maybe now the timimg is perfect for putting Harness on TV because channel 7 is playing old afl games .. channel 7 are better to play something live.. they played an old afl game last night. Harness needs a real energy driven CEO who mixes with tv executives. A special event could be organised with the best pacers Australia wide in a free for all one week, then a miracle mile the next week. Then it could also I show the public some of the best runs from the past as a lead up,. eg Halwes ( of course), Maoris Idol , Popular Alm etc , Satinover, An event could also have a 5 yr old event etc
It is tough but harness at night .. there is a window on free to air right now .. that window will close ... It is worth pushing hard now but the CEO and it’s board of H racing must work hard, full of passion .. A chat to Bruce Mcavaney is essential .. I could help

[Halwes]

Poster Boy trialled at Ballarat this week. Led and won as he liked (only a field of 3). Last half: 55.9 last quarter 26.6 . Loved his day out and pulled up well. We went to the Stables the day prior to the trial, he looks magnificent and appreciated his sugar cubes. Unfortunately the timing of his race return is under a cloud because of Covid19.
There have been enquiries about a stud career : he is bred on the same cross as Captain Treacherous out of a mare who has twice been Victorian Broodmare of the a Year and last years Australian Broodmare if the Year.

Pls read my post here earlier. free to air is showing old afl games at prime time at night. Let’s try to get Poster Boy when fitter on free to air with a free for all and a miracle mile at Melton. Timing is perfect .. yes no crowd but try anything at the moment ..the public love champions.. and when Corona disappears , people will go (;new people) to see him live. Yes I’m optimistic. You know what drove American people during the depression... Sea Biscuit lifted them beyond imagination, Harness execs need supreme passion to drive this with energy

[aussiebreno]

Pls read my post here earlier. free to air is showing old afl games at prime time at night. Let’s try to get Poster Boy when fitter on free to air with a free for all and a miracle mile at Melton. Timing is perfect .. yes no crowd but try anything at the moment ..the public love champions.. and when Corona disappears , people will go (;new people) to see him live. Yes I’m optimistic. You know what drove American people during the depression... Sea Biscuit lifted them beyond imagination, Harness execs need supreme passion to drive this with energy

Love the passion and ideas! Agree we need a better presence on TV.

At the current time though I think we are best off not being on TV. Hairdressers and baristas copped it during the week from the general public, I think the less people that know racing is continuing during this crisis the better.

[Halwes]

Love the passion and ideas! Agree we need a better presence on TV.

At the current time though I think we are best off not being on TV. Hairdressers and baristas copped it during the week from the general public, I think the less people that know racing is continuing during this crisis the better.

Yes the situation is complex, but it was complex and demoralising during the depression in the US, everywhere. The found a saviour, a saviour that took their mind away, it did, I’m certain that Sea Biscuit saved lives, totally captured people, you only had to look at the footage to see that. Poster Boy needs to be even better than Halwes ( ha ha) but if he is a brilliant sprinter, and can sustain it under great pressure ( that might be an issue as top flight pacers who could test him, might not be around. In other words he must be a super horse. You know something, Halwes was very very lightly raced, had dicky legs, but when he returned to racing he starred, he really starred, he was a big boy with superlative strength, superlative sprinting three wide etc etc and still winning. . wow. He loved winnng like Sea Biscuit. Of course , Poster B right now couldn’t have the fitness yet etc etc and the owners probably don’t want to push him .
Im talking about resurrecting Harness. You have to crash thru, forget the weeds and press on . The current situation definitely gives us a window of opportunity .
Cant Poster Boy connections get on the blower to Bruce Mc at channel 7 ?

[Messenger]

We only have Standing Starts for the trotters not the pacers nowadays Terry.
I think the only reason the Trotters got to keep them is that people know trotters can break anyway

I think I am right in saying the death of the standing start came about due to one of the NZers who was favourite for the Hunter Cup (I think) breaking and the punters never really got a run for their money so everybody jumped on the 'all mobile' bandwagon

I don't actually follow the trotters to the extent that I follow the pacers but I love a trotting stand start where the backmarker (favourite?) is giving away a big start as I want to see if he/she can make up the handicap

It is also one of the points of excitement in pro running, where the backmarker might be giving up the best part of a lap in a 4 lap/mile race. I am a big athletics fan and the greatest run I ever saw from Cathy Freeman was not the Sydney Olympics but at Stawell where she overcame a huge handicap in a 400m (no Stawell this year :()

There are plenty who would like to see the return of standing starts for the pacers to recreate the excitement of the old Showgrounds days Terry

[Halwes]

We only have Standing Starts for the trotters not the pacers nowadays Terry.
I think the only reason the Trotters got to keep them is that people know trotters can break anyway

I think I am right in saying the death of the standing start came about due to one of the NZers who was favourite for the Hunter Cup (I think) breaking and the punters never really got a run for their money so everybody jumped on the 'all mobile' bandwagon

I don't actually follow the trotters to the extent that I follow the pacers but I love a trotting stand start where the backmarker (favourite?) is giving away a big start as I want to see if he/she can make up the handicap

It is also one of the points of excitement in pro running, where the backmarker might be giving up the best part of a lap in a 4 lap/mile race. I am a big athletics fan and the greatest run I ever saw from Cathy Freeman was not the Sydney Olympics but at Stawell where she overcame a huge handicap in a 400m (no Stawell this year :()

There are plenty who would like to see the return of standing starts for the pacers to recreate the excitement of the old Showgrounds days Terry

Yes standing starts look great and fewer pacers than trotters actually break in standing starts , yet they have retained standing starts for trotters. Makes no sense. Years ago when trotters did not have mobiles, they broke a helluva lot.
You know all I have said here appears to fall on deaf ears. I was hoping Bonnie would have said something. The footy, the AFL won’t return till end May at earliest, but more like end of June at earliest. So the window for free to air is now till end of June (probably later) for live harness racing on Saturday night on tv free to air.
If Poster Boy raced on Saturday night live in a ffa and 2 weeks later in a miracle mile, it would be great .. you might only have 5 races so you get quality.. We know THAT RACING HAS RESUMED

[aussiebreno]

Just do away with trotters. Majestuoso would have just got punters banned from the pub for smashing the TV and yelling profanities (if pubs were open). Odds on and hits the front with 20m to go and gallops. Not doing us any favour in battle for punting dollar.

Most of them would be drunk at the pub and not even realise until they scan their ticket. Cant blame everyday person for not wanting to spend another dollar on harness racing if that happens to them.

[Messenger]

Yes standing starts look great and fewer pacers than trotters actually break in standing starts , yet they have retained standing starts for trotters. Makes no sense. Years ago when trotters did not have mobiles, they broke a helluva lot .
You know all I have said here appears to fall on deaf ears. I was hoping Bonny would have said something. The footy, the AFL won’t return till end May at earliest, but more like end of June at earliest. So the window for free to air is now till end of June (probably later) for live harness racing on Saturday night on tv free to air.
If Poster Boy raced on Saturday night live in a ffa and 2weeks later miracle mile, it would be great .. you might only have 5 races so you get quality.. We know THAT RACING HAS RESUMED

It would be up to our authorities to hatch a plan to get harness on TV in the Coronavirus interim Terry. One of the biggest problems would be that the Racing/gallops code would object and expect to be given first consideration. They can race at night as much as us nowadays and they already have their own Ch78 channel which is not going to standby and let us use 7, 7Two or 7Mate before them. Both codes would have to convince programmers that they would out-rate an old footy game or an old movie

[Messenger]

Just do away with trotters. Majestuoso would have just got punters banned from the pub for smashing the TV and yelling profanities (if pubs were open). Odds on and hits the front with 20m to go and gallops. Not doing us any favour in battle for punting dollar.

Most of them would be drunk at the pub and not even realise until they scan their ticket. Cant blame everyday person for not wanting to spend another dollar on harness racing if that happens to them.

Hey Brenno, if racing is closed down again do you think there is a chance they would show those cartoon races that you see in the pubs (cannot think of their correct name) for people to gamble on on the racing channels LOL

What was that rule they brought in about a horse galloping across the line - he kept the race!

[aussiebreno]

Hey Brenno, if racing is closed down again do you think there is a chance they would show those cartoon races that you see in the pubs (cannot think of their correct name) for people to gamble on on the racing channels LOL

What was that rule they brought in about a horse galloping across the line - he kept the race!

Just checked and he did in fact lose the race. Relegated to 3rd. I was about to have an aneurysm about! Despite not agreeing with the rule due to situations like this it is the rule.

[Messenger]

Just checked and he did in fact lose the race. Relegated to 3rd. I was about to have an aneurysm about! Despite not agreeing with the rule due to situations like this it is the rule.

You can see why I was confused

[Halwes]

It would be up to our authorities to hatch a plan to get harness on TV in the Coronavirus interim Terry. One of the biggest problems would be that the Racing/gallops code would object and expect to be given first consideration. They can race at night as much as us nowadays and they already have their own Ch78 channel which is not going to standby and let us use 7, 7Two or 7Mate before them. Both codes would have to convince programmers that they would out-rate an old footy game or an old movie

I understand but CEOs and Boards in general have a terrible record of being reactionary when it comes to ‘ management” and planning .. look at banks as one example .. They collect big money and wait for things to occur, then blame their staff .. money laundering by criminals was one of them . They are not innovative . I think the CEO and Board of Harness have an opportunity..there is enough thoroughbred horse racing on tv already ... i dont think they’d try. It’s a shame when we have this great opportunity to try very hard to get harness live late April till end of May say, or later . Do you know any execs or Board members at Harness Racing?

[aussiebreno]

How do we incorporate pace makers?

Admittedly Gp1s but I have watched every single race on Sky today and the best two races all day were Verry Ellegant in the Tancred at Rosehill and the Gold Crown.

Dancetaria made a mid race move and set a hot pace in the Tancred, and Mach Dan softened up Lochinvar Chief at Bathurst. We don't see it much because Danceteria folded like a pack of cards and Lochinvar got beat (and Mach Dan probably wouldn't have run a place either even if it didn't gallop). It doesn't happen because it screws the pacemaker up.

Thinking aloud, have pacemakers with stopwatch depending on grade of race and track/track condition run within certain time standards until the 800m when they peel off. Instead of barrier draw just start them in racing pattern - eg peg horses and running line horses already in an order based on PBD. Have pacemakers lead up both lines. Cant overtake pacemakers only come 3+ wide up to the gig beside them to the 800m. Can have PBD and the pacemaker in the running line could even be made to go slower than the pacemaker on the inside so the outside horses have to give them 20m at the 800m.

Do lose some of the excitement off the gate and its gets a bit messy with making sure the pacemaker sets the right pace, and visually probably not great seeing them peel off.

If not maybe actually set the time for slow sectionals so they actually are quick sectionals. And it shouldn't just be the leader who gets fined, its the drivers letting the leader get away with it that should be fined.

[Messenger]

I understand but CEOs and Boards in general have a terrible record of being reactionary when it comes to ‘ management” and planning .. look at banks as one example .. They collect big money and wait for things to occur, then blame their staff .. money laundering by criminals was one of them . They are not innovative . I think the CEO and Board of Harness have an opportunity..there is enough thoroughbred horse racing on tv already ... i dont think they’d try. It’s a shame when we have this great opportunity to try very hard to get harness live late April till end of May say, or later . Do you know any execs or Board members at Harness Racing?

I don't know any Terry, I'm just a fan, but I do know that our last couple of HRV CEO's have been willing to answer emails you send them. (Go for it)

You will see that there have been pages of ideas on this forum (not just in this thread) but I am not sure we the posters have ever had any influence, although I do remember the previous CEO saying he was going to taken the printed pages of one thread to a meeting.

Once upon a time we used to have HRV and HRNSW post on this forum but I don't know that they even read us anymore - for a while after we fell out of favour, I think they monitored us for a while and told some of our 'liscensed' posters to be careful

We are not as strong a forum as we once were but it does seem to me that they are missing out on an opportunity and that a few minutes a week would go a long way as a public relations exercise

Our current CEO in Vic, Dayle Brown, has said that everything is on the table and that he wants to hear BIG ideas - I sent him a link to some relevant forum threads in December, which he thanked me for and said he would 'take a look'. He is still completing, what is a very lengthy round of consulting the public meeting (all around the state) but they have been deferred due to them being gatherings and due to the workload that the virus would have produced

[Halwes]

I don't know any Terry, I'm just a fan, but I do know that our last couple of HRV CEO's have been willing to answer emails you send them. (Go for it)

You will see that there have been pages of ideas on this forum (not just in this thread) but I am not sure we the posters have ever had any influence, although I do remember the previous CEO saying he was going to taken the printed pages of one thread to a meeting.

Once upon a time we used to have HRV and HRNSW post on this forum but I don't know that they even read us anymore - for a while after we fell out of favour, I think they monitored us for a while and told some of our 'liscensed' posters to be careful

We are not as strong a forum as we once were but it does seem to me that they are missing out on an opportunity and that a few minutes a week would go a long way as a public relations exercise

Our current CEO in Vic, Dayle Brown, has said that everything is on the table and that he wants to hear BIG ideas - I sent him a link to some relevant forum threads in December, which he thanked me for and said he would 'take a look'. He is still completing, what is a very lengthy round of consulting the public meeting (all around the state) but they have been deferred due to them being gatherings and due to the workload that the virus would have produced

OK Kevin, here is my email ( cut and paste of my text) that I sent to the Marketing Director Andrew English of HR, but I fear that it may be the wrong email address. I’d be eternally grateful if you could ask one of you contacts the correct email address. I emailed : andrewenglish@gmail.com
I’d be pleased to get your opinion of what I wrote, I won’t lose any marks for lack of passion eh! You know something, I can honestly say to you, it truly is driven by the passion I had for Halwes, that passion is still there as it always was .

Hi Andrew

I’ll go straight to the point here, and maybe the stars are lining up.
My name is Terry, a great fan of harness racing.
Halwes is the best horse I have ever seen, just a superstar; when everything was needed, Halwes shone. As driver Kevin Newman said, Horses ‘can go’ once, good horses can go twice, but super horses like Halwes, could go three times. If you ever want to market a horse, Halwes was it. Others were great, Halwes was on his own.

Aub Wesley refused a 300 k offer from the American Yonkers Raceway pros so many years ago, worth millions today. He made us so happy to watch the wonders of Halwes, however short his career was.

Andrew, I went on the Harness Racing Forum to express my views about how to improve HR. Everybody loves a champion. In Australia we have had some great champions. In the old days the Trotting Boards had no idea, no skills in marketing etc these champions, even though the trots were on 7 every Saturday night. HR fell by the wayside, and is shadow of itself today.

We know what Sea Biscuit did for the Americans in the Great Depression. He was a saviour, a genuine saviour, saving lives because the people hit by misery needed a saviour, someone to hang onto, Sea Biscuit was it. You only had to see the black and white footage to get some idea of it, it was unimaginable how much they embraced a champion. It gave everyone great relief, and a sense of belongingness.

We have in the world a similar cauldron, the gathering of, no, in fact the immediate effect of a another Great Depression that may have a long time to go. The only difference in terms of horse racing is the very very sad fact we can't have crowds at racing events, but we can watch them.

What I am saying is that there is a window of opportunity at the moment on free to air TV, on 7 now that the AFL aren’t telecasting footy, to make a massive move to televise harness racing on 7. This window will close when the footy restarts no earlier than the end June this year you think. 7 are showing replays of AFL from some years ago, or older films.
By chance, when I was on the HR Forums Site, I was praising the wonders of Halwes saying we needed another superstar pacer to revive HR.

As it turned out, Kevin O’Donahough, agreed with that stating that when we do, we (HR) need to tell the world about it. He said Poster Boy could be that horse. I have not seen Poster Boy. No sooner had he said that when the breeder/owner said on the forum that Poster Boy had resumed from a long lay out and trialled very well this week at Ballarat.

There is the opportunity Andrew to get Poster Boy on free to air 7 during the window when AFL is not on the TV. A window from probably late April to late June where we could see HR on free to air again.

It would have to be special, a free for all one week with Poster Boy the centre of attention, a miracle mile before or after the ffa, probably before the ffa, followed by another ffa a fortnight later, perhaps in NSW, etc. In other words, a big splash of the best HR we can gather together.

I don’t know whether the connections would risk Poster Boy early in his preparation, but I can tell you this, and it’s on the record. Halwes was a very, very, very, lightly raced horse, with dicky legs yet when he resumed from an eighteen months spell, he decimated top flight opposition in all heats of the 1968 NZ Interdominion, only to be scratched 1 hour before the final due to mild lameness.

He returned 1 or 2 weeks later and starred, really starred. Poster Boy may not be as stout, as brilliant or able to sustain sprints for such long intervals as Halwes could do, and no horse was as good as Halwes over 3000 metres, but he is a worthy, very worthy horse to promote to the public in the circumstances we have now.

I contend that HR will never have a ’Sea Biscuit opportunity’ like this ever again.
I implore you to approach the Board and Channel 7 immediately and begin planning a big resurrection of HR, it is worth it.

Bruce McAveney knows how good Halwes was, he will agree with me that this idea is a great one. He is driven by emotions too, so he is the person to pull this off at 7. When every business is suffering, Bruce understands that this is a precious moment to grab, there won’t be others.

Of course, I don’t have access to the Owners of Poster Boy, and these people are the first to approach because they may not be interested at all in what I propose. They may be concerned that he is not ready either etc etc.

Yes there are existing races scheduled in coming months, and what I propose requires that this be addressed but you look at the big picture.

HR wanted big ideas, I’m giving you one. The Poster Boy story is of course part of the tale to be told, but he could go on to NSW, Qld, WA etc and HR is back in town.

Yours sincerely
Terry Meehan (Tezza)
0412382780

[Messenger]

Hi Terry, I happened to email HRV CEO Dayle Brown, asking why Vic is not going down the regionalization road like NSW as a means of possibly avoiding a statewide shut down the next time somebody is suspected of having coronavirus
I put a PS on the bottom about your Ch7 suggestion as a Big Idea
He has already replied to me
Saying there will be announcement this afternoon about regional racing and
"I like the free-to-air approach for TV, we launched on SEN 1116 last night with new shows and coverage of our product more to come."

[Messenger]

How do we incorporate pace makers?

Admittedly Gp1s but I have watched every single race on Sky today and the best two races all day were Verry Ellegant in the Tancred at Rosehill and the Gold Crown.

Dancetaria made a mid race move and set a hot pace in the Tancred, and Mach Dan softened up Lochinvar Chief at Bathurst. We don't see it much because Danceteria folded like a pack of cards and Lochinvar got beat (and Mach Dan probably wouldn't have run a place either even if it didn't gallop). It doesn't happen because it screws the pacemaker up.

Thinking aloud, have pacemakers with stopwatch depending on grade of race and track/track condition run within certain time standards until the 800m when they peel off. Instead of barrier draw just start them in racing pattern - eg peg horses and running line horses already in an order based on PBD. Have pacemakers lead up both lines. Cant overtake pacemakers only come 3+ wide up to the gig beside them to the 800m. Can have PBD and the pacemaker in the running line could even be made to go slower than the pacemaker on the inside so the outside horses have to give them 20m at the 800m.

Do lose some of the excitement off the gate and its gets a bit messy with making sure the pacemaker sets the right pace, and visually probably not great seeing them peel off.

If not maybe actually set the time for slow sectionals so they actually are quick sectionals. And it shouldn't just be the leader who gets fined, its the drivers letting the leader get away with it that should be fined.

Which race are you referring to Breno, I have been trying to work it out but :confused:

ANSWER: Working my way through the Bathurst replays and it was the next race you meant Ideal Dan

[Halwes]

Hi Terry, I happened to email HRV CEO Dayle Brown, asking why Vic is not going down the regionalization road like NSW as a means of possibly avoiding a statewide shut down the next time somebody is suspected of having coronavirus
I put a PS on the bottom about your Ch7 suggestion as a Big Idea
He has already replied to me
Saying there will be announcement this afternoon about regional racing and
"I like the free-to-air approach for TV, we launched on SEN 1116 last night with new shows and coverage of our product more to come."

Thanks .. did you read my last post where I sent a lengthy email to their marketing director, but it is not the right address.
CAN U PLS GIVE ME DAYLE BROWN EMAIL ADDRESS
Did you like my email.

[aussiebreno]

Which race are you referring to Breno, I have been trying to work it out but :confused:

ANSWER: Working my way through the Bathurst replays and it was the next race you meant Ideal Dan
Ah yep Ideal Dan oops

I should have called Lochinvar Chief 'Lochinvar Art' to really confuse everybody.

Pity I didn't get messed up between Perfect Stride and Focus Stride and back Focus Stride!

[Messenger]

Yeah, you don't find all these 'tagged' names in the Brilliant Names thread

[Halwes]

Thanks .. did you read my last post where I sent a lengthy email to their marketing director, but it is not the right address.
CAN U PLS GIVE ME DAYLE BROWN EMAIL ADDRESS
Did you like my email.


Re my post here, as I said earlier in that email, can you please give me Dayle Brown’s email address at HRV [/B][/B]
I’m not sure what he said on SEN, but seems rather co-incidental that he was making a statement on SEN rather than a press release.

I’d be interested in your opinion on the lengthy email I prepared .
We are in totally unprecedented times. Unprecedented times call for big decisions, unprecedented actions, bold presence. it is the right time to passionately work to do something with paradigm change, with conviction, with purpose.
I might be new to the forum but I have been told i have great ideas, and genuine passion.
Terry

[Halwes]

Hi Kevin

I mucked up replying to a couple of posts, but I need Dayle Brown’s email address please.
Thanks Kevin

[Halwes]

Kindly give me Dayle email address at HRV
Thanks
Terry

[Yabbie]

Dayle’s email is

Dbrown@hrv.org.au

Cheers

[Messenger]

Terry, I am not on the forum ALL the time. I read everything eventually and would have given you Dayle's email tonight sometime - you do not need to repeat post although I must admit I had not seen your first request straight away

As far as your email goes, it reads well but I believe the world favours succinct sometimes and after starting with the first line that you did, I feel you could have just gone with:

I’ll go straight to the point here, and maybe the stars are lining up.
What I am saying is that there is a window of opportunity at the moment on free to air TV, on 7 now that the AFL aren’t telecasting footy, to make a massive move to televise harness racing on 7.
HR wanted big ideas, I’m giving you one.

[Halwes]

Dayle’s email is

Dbrown@hrv.org.au

Cheers

Thanks Yabbie

[Halwes]

Terry, I am not on the forum ALL the time. I read everything eventually and would have given you Dayle's email tonight sometime - you do not need to repeat post

As far as your email goes, it reads well but I believe the world favours succinct sometimes and after starting with the first line that you did, I feel you could have just gone with:

I’ll go straight to the point here, and maybe the stars are lining up.
What I am saying is that there is a window of opportunity at the moment on free to air TV, on 7 now that the AFL aren’t telecasting footy, to make a massive move to televise harness racing on 7.
HR wanted big ideas, I’m giving you one.

Thanks for that Kevin, I fully accept your advice and apologise for pressing you. I need to temper my enthusiasm.
I have emailed Dayle Brown. BTW, I saw a video of Ignatius winning a mile race.. in a word , breathtaking

[Messenger]

No, it was lucky you repeated it as I had missed your request between my question to Breno and his reply
People think I am on the forum more than I actually am, you see I stay logged on (and computer on) even when I am not at my desk for hours sometimes

[arlington]

How do we incorporate pace makers?

Admittedly Gp1s but I have watched every single race on Sky today and the best two races all day were Verry Ellegant in the Tancred at Rosehill and the Gold Crown.

Dancetaria made a mid race move and set a hot pace in the Tancred, and Mach Dan softened up Lochinvar Chief at Bathurst. We don't see it much because Danceteria folded like a pack of cards and Lochinvar got beat (and Mach Dan probably wouldn't have run a place either even if it didn't gallop). It doesn't happen because it screws the pacemaker up.

Thinking aloud, have pacemakers with stopwatch depending on grade of race and track/track condition run within certain time standards until the 800m when they peel off. Instead of barrier draw just start them in racing pattern - eg peg horses and running line horses already in an order based on PBD. Have pacemakers lead up both lines. Cant overtake pacemakers only come 3+ wide up to the gig beside them to the 800m. Can have PBD and the pacemaker in the running line could even be made to go slower than the pacemaker on the inside so the outside horses have to give them 20m at the 800m.

Do lose some of the excitement off the gate and its gets a bit messy with making sure the pacemaker sets the right pace, and visually probably not great seeing them peel off.

If not maybe actually set the time for slow sectionals so they actually are quick sectionals. And it shouldn't just be the leader who gets fined, its the drivers letting the leader get away with it that should be fined.

How do we not incorporate pacemakers - Gloucester Park last Friday night.

[gutwagon]

Sky Racing own the tv rights to harness racing. They hate HR and probably wouldn't allow it on free to air even though the TAB would benefit from the extra turnover .

It's a great idea, hope it happens.

[Halwes]

Sky Racing own the tv rights to harness racing. They hate HR and probably wouldn't allow it on free to air even though the TAB would benefit from the extra turnover .

It's a great idea, hope it happens.

We hear “ we’re all in this together” “ We’ll get through ”. It’s crap.
I’d like to eyeball Skye and put that to them and ask them if they’d agree to allowing HRV to get some free to air.. They would not be “in it together”
If they won’t let HRV to get some free-to-air.

We are “all in it together” would be demonstrated goodwill, a willingness to do something for someone else, that’s what it means.

We have not lived in a time of such disarray and collapse (wars excluded of course).
It is precisely because of Corona and the decimation of employment which has occurred so quickly, that good will, and demonstration of it, can be contagious.
I wrote to Dayle Brown but I am not confident about getting a reply. We’ll see whether he is true to his word.

The window for exposing HRV can be short, but everybody promoting the money are not fair dinkum trying for the times we are in. Sometimes I wish I was the CEO of harness.

If HRV gets say six weeks of top Harness Racing, it would lift its profile. Its a crying shame we can’t attend, but it’s something, it’s worth it.

I had a very quick look at the talent around. Poster Boy on the way back, and the video I saw of Ignatius winning a mile race blew me away. He screamed away from the leader in the last 300 metres cruising to the line even though in the death seat for the journey. Ignatius is a very very smart horse.

So free-for all’s, miles, and hopefully free to air in Sydney, etc might be possible, even if this is a splash. After all, 7 is only showing old AFL games in prime time on Saturdays at present, or a movie. Gee pretty boring rather than live sport.

7 in particular, should have a fair bit of cash at the moment as the 10 mill per game that it gives the AFL for broadcast rights isn’t a debit from their account at present. So money should not be a blocker. The blockers are the ones who think HR isn’t worth it. They can tune in to Netflix. I’d say to them, just watch say a mile race with Ignatius and Poster Boy, and others, or a cracking free-for-all

I think Bruce McAvenay is the key ally HRV need. He loves champions, he loved Halwes, he loved Popular Alm. Bruce is driven by emotions, passion, and circumstance. All this might be enough.

[arlington]

Only as I understand it, HRV had been in talks with crocmedia, a combined racing segment/broadcast via SEN, started last Saturday. https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/hrv-partners-with-sentrack-taking-trots-to-new-audience/
A whisper, could be more than a whisper -crocmedia - Craig Hutchison - 7 suite - fill a sports/footy program void.

[aussiebreno]

How do we not incorporate pacemakers - Gloucester Park last Friday night.

Which race?

[arlington]

three breno

[Halwes]

Only as I understand it, HRV had been in talks with crocmedia, a combined racing segment/broadcast via SEN, started last Saturday. https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/hrv-partners-with-sentrack-taking-trots-to-new-audience/
A whisper, could be more than a whisper -crocmedia - Craig Hutchison - 7 suite - fill a sports/footy program void.

SENTrack, what? seems like a croc ( pardon the pun) of shite to me, in the dregs, in the weeds.

I’ll stick to what I said, we have a great opportunity to give to our country what we are used to, what we all had when we grew up .. Free to Air. And more 7 channels to enrich with something other than food shows.. aren’t we over those completely.

Harness Racing Free to Air could last all of 2020, but perhaps there might be only 4 races live, and one standing start for pacers.. they are a good look with handicaps.. it’s all happening when you watch them. We have to shake things up.

We need fresh approaches like mine.

As I said, Bruce Mcavaney is the mover and shaker, and 7 is flush with cash with nothing going to the AFL now due to Corona

[Messenger]

I have to tell you Terry that people have be asking for free to air trots for as long as they have been missing so it is not exactly 'fresh'
Even on this forum alone you find dozens of posts calling for it dating back yonks
You seem to have fallen in love with the trots again just of late - you have missed out on a lot that has been happening
I would love for it to happen to help us find some new fans
At present although it is a 'no frills' production, people who do not have Foxtel or Kayo, can watch Victorian harness races on Trots Vision on their phone, tablet, computer or smart Tv
Most punters (I am not one) get video through whom ever they bet with

https://www.thetrots.com.au/racing/live-trots-vision/

[arlington]

Just trying to eloquently pass on what I'd heard Terry. As you're probably aware, crocmedia, CEO Craig Hutch, produce a fair bit of footy content and pretty sure they were behind the big greyhound races shown on 7 and pretty sure the greyhound show on 7mate(?) that still(?) runs weekly.

[aussiebreno]

three breno
Jeepers

[Halwes]

Just trying to eloquently pass on what I'd heard Terry. As you're probably aware, crocmedia, CEO Craig Hutch, produce a fair bit of footy content and pretty sure they were behind the big greyhound races shown on 7 and pretty sure the greyhound show on 7mate(?) that still(?) runs weekly.

Yehh sorry .. I can get a bit over the top. I have recall only of a show he did for a while with that guru fella Sheehan ( not Mike) re the quality of afl kids coming thru . I confess to knowing little about Crocmedia .. the name is not one I'd choose. To me this is about whether HRV have a good relationship with seven and as I say Bruce is the man but he is very crook... I keep on saying there is,a window... I'm gunna stop belting on about it, I'd rather get someone to educate me about the top horses ...pacers going around in Aus and NZ . Kevin raves about Poster Boy and I only saw one video of him. Ignatius looks very promising but don't know a great deal about others. I wish I could find Halwes kids etc

[arlington]

Jeepers
Did you read the stewards report breno, not sure if it makes it more or less jeepers.

[Messenger]

Yehh sorry .. I can get a bit over the top. I have recall only of a show he did for a while with that guru fella Sheehan ( not Mike) re the quality of afl kids coming thru . I confess to knowing little about Crocmedia .. the name is not one I'd choose. To me this is about whether HRV have a good relationship with seven and as I say Bruce is the man but he is very crook... I keep on saying there is,a window... I'm gunna stop belting on about it, I'd rather get someone to educate me about the top horses ...pacers going around in Aus and NZ . Kevin raves about Poster Boy and I only saw one video of him. Ignatius looks very promising but don't know a great deal about others. I wish I could find Halwes kids etc

Post 141 "I agree Terry, when we have our next true Star we have to let the World know about it. The appropriately named Poster Boy may have filled those shoes but a mishap more or less straight after a MM win has not seen his return for nearly 12 months now"
:confused:

[Messenger]

How do we not incorporate pacemakers - Gloucester Park last Friday night.

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=GP270320#GPM27032005

That was terrible

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=GP270320

Jeepers all right, if the stewards accept that crap from the Halls, they will accept anything

[arlington]

Some interesting reading from a couple of stewards reports over the weekend.

[Halwes]

Where can i see the stewards reports.. is it the full detail?

[Messenger]

Terry, Terry, Terry

Just start here and let your mouse hover over all those things on the grey menu bar above the picture for a plethora of things to keep you interested

http://www.harness.org.au/index.cfm

Here is another one that you will love

http://classicfamilies.net/horsedetails.aspx

Type in Halwes in the Go box and select your 1959 mate from the options that appear
Then click on the Purple DESCENDENTS tab you will see above his pedigree (and don't forget to click on all those little + boxes that appear)
Then go back and click on the Brown OFFSPRING tab for a summary of his 'classic class' progeny - click on any one of them for more detail/pedigree for them (and then use your back arrow/key to return to the list)

[Halwes]

Terry, Terry, Terry

Just start here and let your mouse hover over all those things on the grey menu bar above the picture for a plethora of things to keep you interested

http://www.harness.org.au/index.cfm

Here is another one that you will love

http://classicfamilies.net/horsedetails.aspx

Type in Halwes in the Go box and select your 1959 mate from the options that appear
Then click on the Purple DESCENDENTS tab you will see above his pedigree (and don't forget to click on all those little + boxes that appear)
Then go back and click on the Brown OFFSPRING tab for a summary of his 'classic class' progeny - click on any one of them for more detail/pedigree for them (and then use your back arrow/key to return to the list)

I had a go .. but na I'll try again tomorrow. Back to other horses racing now... IGNATIUS you wouldn't read about it . another Tassie superstar.. I'm so so mpressed with Ignatius. Gee he is a brilliant horse ...omg ... he reminds me of Halwes in terms of how free flowing, keen, and relaxed he is . He is of course not from Halwes lines ( well I think so) He is leaner than Halwes... When we are allowed to travel again, and he is racing here or NSW, I will definitely go .. you can join me .. everyone can.. I want to see him under pressure as a 4/5 year old, where he has to go three wide, or gets pushed back . But he is a beauty

[Messenger]

He is a topliner Terry but now as a 5yo he no longer dominates like he did as a 3yo
See his peformance history below and you will notice at the end of each row/performance you can click on a video replay

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/horse-search/?horseId=795253

[Halwes]

He is a topliner Terry but now as a 5yo he no longer dominates like he did as a 3yo
See his peformance history below and you will notice at the end of each row/performance you can click on a video replay

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/horse-search/?horseId=795253

Yes thanks I hadn’t seen all this. You know, my first impression when i saw the data, was omg, he has had too many runs, and when I saw his last start on 7 Mar, he was back in the field, tested, but didn’t run on quite as much. To me, that indicates burn out, and if true that’s selfish, that’s ruining a horse.
The video I saw was in 2018 as you say as a three year old. I’d spell him for 3 or 4 months.
Still looking for a Halwes type, as his former driver Newman (not much of a driver in my view) said Halwes in a race could ‘go’ three times, few, very few could do that. When he beat Voice Derby from 36 yards, a top horse, and when he demolished every horse in all heats, in that late 60s Interdominion, I knew we probably would never see another with his trio of talents in sprinting, staying, and stunningly sustaining his runs, going to the line hard. You never saw him weaken on a run. Beautiful, just beautiful. Even though he had dicky legs, he was super durable, and knew how to win the big events, knew he was in a big event, like Sea Biscuit.

[aussiebreno]

Yes thanks I hadn’t seen all this. You know, my first impression when i saw the data, was omg, he has had too many runs, and when I saw his last start on 7 Mar, he was back in the field, tested, but didn’t run on quite as much. To me, that indicates burn out, and if true that’s selfish, that’s ruining a horse.
The video I saw was in 2018 as you say as a three year old. I’d spell him for 3 or 4 months.

He has been mighty well looked after by Rattray. Its just that others have matured and gotten better with age.

[Messenger]

Yes he has only had 9 races this season (would be off for a spell now), 8 races last season, 13 in his successful 3yo season and only 6 races as a 2yo
He is only 5 and may be one of those horses still gaining strength who may not peak until 6-7-8

[Halwes]

He has been mighty well looked after by Rattray. Its just that others have matured and gotten better with age.

ok, but all that thudding on the tracks and the frame are somewhat separate... he seemed to have raced a lot as a 3 yr old. I guess I was looking for reasons for the form change because he seemed exceptional as a three yr old. I guess it's a bit of a gut feel. He may not have the constitution. I'll watch him closely when he resumes

[aussiebreno]

ok, but all that thudding on the tracks and the frame are somewhat separate... he seemed to have raced a lot as a 3 yr old. I guess I was looking for reasons for the form change because he seemed exceptional as a three yr old. I guess it's a bit of a gut feel. He may not have the constitution. I'll watch him closely when he resumes

No form change from Ignatius. Form change has been from the others that have caught up and the fact he was racing 2nd raters most of the time as a 3yo.

Most star 3yos would have at least 13 starts, probably more. He missed the Vic Derby early in the season. A handful of his starts were no more than glorified track workouts.

As a 3yo he simply outclassed sub-par opposition so often got lead at his will. Harder when he isn't getting easy leads now and facing the top opposition. Ignatius hadn't even faced the best 3yos until the final race of season when he got beaten into midfield.

He's a star and certainly looked like he could take the next step at Grand Circuit level but that exactly what it would have been - taking the next step. He hasn't gone backwards or had a form change.

[Halwes]

No form change from Ignatius. Form change has been from the others that have caught up and the fact he was racing 2nd raters most of the time as a 3yo.

Most star 3yos would have at least 13 starts, probably more. He missed the Vic Derby early in the season. A handful of his starts were no more than glorified track workouts.

As a 3yo he simply outclassed sub-par opposition so often got lead at his will. Harder when he isn't getting easy leads now and facing the top opposition. Ignatius hadn't even faced the best 3yos until the final race of season when he got beaten into midfield.

He's a star and certainly looked like he could take the next step at Grand Circuit level but that exactly what it would have been - taking the next step. He hasn't gone backwards or had a form change.

Fair enough Brendan, I see what you are saying .. who is interdominion material at the moment.. you know have endurance for a gruelling campaign and the other required qualities

[Halwes]

Unrelated comments by me Kevin
I am starting to do some research on Vincenzina .. gee it’s hard, the it system is slick but I get lost
I found a 3 yr old filly, Vincenzina who looks to have excellent potential, she ran second to Dr Susan recently in a big race final. She had to Come from the second row, and if she was little closer to Dr Susan in the run, she would have got up
Put Vincenzina In your little black book.
But in general I struggle to find things like forthcoming meetings say for her I can look up to see when she is running
How can I find (again) this sort of info . I guess it’s a betting site that shows odds etc and the runners etc
Grateful if you could help me again. Konan is another horse, but I’m not convinced he’ll become a top liner yet
Thanks Kevin .. l went a fair bit, and to some country meetings .

[Messenger]

I am more than happy to help
So that you don't miss a race for any horses you are following, HRA has a service Black Book

http://www.harness.org.au/apps/account:login?nextPath=%2Fapps%2Fblackbook%3Ahorse s%2Flist&nextAction=&fw1pk=1

You will notice in the Results and the Fields which you find on HRA or any state homepage that after the name of every horse there is a little symbol that looks a bit like a book, hover over that symbol and you will see that it says Add to blackbook - click if you want to add the horse
But first you have to have signed up (free) at the link above
Whenever that horse is down to race, you will get an email a day or two beforehand

[Messenger]

One way we could improve is to have people do the job they are assigned
Being selfish here, you see I am not glued to Sky Racing or Trots Vision all the time - frequently I do other stuff and like to catch up with replays an hour or two later
One cannot do that if the Results are not posted (and Video replay soon after) - like at Terang tonight where we are approaching R8 but there are no results or replays up for R1 yet!
Lucky we have TAB apps to cover peoples' arses

[gutwagon]

Terang fields not even in the Herald Sun !

Yes Kevin the website is not what it used to be !

[Messenger]

Terang results are up today but why are they showing NSW prices
Onthecrestofawave paid $20.90 on Vic TAB

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=TE040520

https://www.tab.com.au/racing/2020-05-04/TERANG/P/H/6/Win

[KTQ]

If not for the fact we have 2 in it, it would have slipped past me but theres a 1150m race at Bunbury Saturday. The occasional different length of race makes for interesting viewing! Man im excited!

[boondocks]

Redcliffe have heats 9-16 of their Hot Rods Series this evening. The HRA website form guide for Redcliffe has most of the conditions in the race conditions.
As a quick guide races are over 947m with a maximum of five starters and there are only five selected drivers for the entire meeting.
The fastest time in the previous heats is 65.63 and the fastest time overall wins $10000.

Why am i am excited?
Anecdotally I believe we more or less match the greyhounds in the informed betting market but they kill us in attracting the casual punter. Their format is simple and punters can easily follow their rapid product.
We need to compete in this market with a quickfire product that is viable during peak times(in betting and visibility). As an aside the 25 minutes between races would give trainers, drivers and staff an earlier finish and an improved quality of life.

[Messenger]

I'll tune in thanks to your post Terry.
65.63 = 1.51.5 MR
I have to admit that Katie's 1150m race last night was more exciting than many miles that I have seen

ps I notice that Dashing Hannah who set the 1.51.5 is going around in R6 (It is only 20min between most races)

[Messenger]

Another close finish in R1 but they let themselves down by not posting the overall time (important in this series) even though Sky gave them far more latitude than I expected - have to say someone stuffed up

[Messenger]

Only R1 on Sky1 Terry - that is a big downer (to turnover)

Note: They went 64.8 in the last heat

[Halwes]

7
I'll tune in thanks to your post Terry.
65.63 = 1.51.5 MR
I have to admit that Katie's 1150m race last night was more exciting than many miles that I have seen

ps I notice that Dashing Hannah who set the 1.51.5 is going around in R6 (It is only 20min between most races)

While I love to see sprints, you need to see long journey events that demonstate stamina and sprinting combined, you know 3000 metres, where runs are made during those longer journeys... I love to see horses three wide for a lap or too,then death seat, then going strongly to the line hard and still winning.. Menagle is an example where pacing is diluted with so many meetings , nearly every second day.. it dulls the brain..having less meetings and increasing purses may help. But big race scheduling over longer journeys are very exciting.As I keep on saying, I'd travel a long way to see the brilliance and stamina of great horses like beloved Halwes. I'd go to the nsw interdominion if they had some longer journeys.That is what excites me. It's a shame to feel that you like to think you can add good contribution to ' debates ' about the future of pacing, but no one in authority seems ' connected' to the type of thinking I like to put forward. I must admit I didn't like the decision to leave Moonee Valley.. not sure of circumference of track there, but it doesn't matter now.

[aussiebreno]

While I love to see sprints, you need to see long journey events that demonstate stamina and sprinting combined, you know 3000 metres, where runs are made during those longer journeys... I love to see horses three wide for a lap or too,then death seat, then going strongly to the line hard and still winning.. Menagle is an example where pacing is diluted with so many meetings , nearly every second day.. it dulls the brain..having less meetings and increasing purses may help. But big race scheduling over longer journeys are very exciting.As I keep on saying, I'd travel a long way to see the brilliance and stamina of great horses like beloved Halwes. I'd go to the nsw interdominion if they had some longer journeys.That is what excites me

They have better drug testing these days!

[Halwes]

They have better drug testing these days!

I think you are suggesting that Halwes was nobbled... in the all heats he won in the interdomion in the late sixties when he thrashed them all

[aussiebreno]

I think you are suggesting that Halwes was nobbled... in the all heats he won in the interdomion in the late sixties when he thrashed them all

No, just generally speaking.

[Messenger]

Nobbled would normally mean to disable a horse to prevent it from winning. Here we are talking about horses being supercharged. In Victoria you can be found guilty of attempting it and still train 3 winners at Bendigo last night :confused:

[boondocks]

I believe everyone has sky racing 2 now. If i am correct the coverage on Sunday may be a sign of the future ( it may have been our choice).
To draw a comparison with cricket I believe we need three brands of racing:
1. Our 20/20 cricket - short course racing during social punting hotspots like Friday afternoon/early evening to compete with doglotto. Drivers to wear saddlecloth colours. Bonuses for times plus lucky winner draw, plus,plus
2.Our One-day cricket- sprint and middle distance racing( the bred and butter races) held at current scheduling.
3. Our test matches- the classic races from sprints to longer distances (not for the faint hearted) held in warmer weather. These races would be a mixture of “WFA’ ( with mares drawn inside colts and geldings) and handicaps. Note handicaps not standing starts- in the 1950’s people were experimenting with mobile handicapping mechanisms. Surely with lasers,LEDs,robotics,drones and other technology we don’t know about we can find a mechanism that works. At Corbiewood in Scotland I saw 20 metre handicaps behind the mobile but it would not pass the Australian need to be precise test.

[Messenger]

As far as Foxtel subscribers go NOT everybody has Sky2 - they reneged on their big announcement that it was to become free/part of the standard package

[Messenger]

NZ think they can improve racing by closing tracks

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/Disaster-looms-for-NZ-racetracks

[aussiebreno]

Are WA the full quid? Putting Chicago Bull on at midnight.

[Messenger]

Are WA the full quid? Putting Chicago Bull on at midnight.

Pipped on the post by the 11yo
On the topic of how to improve harness racing - every state needs the HD quality that WA provides - watch this replay on full screen on your computer or tablet to appreciate the quality of the video

[Messenger]

WA know how to promote themselves. Have a look at the Top Stories on the HRA site. There are 5 there, promoting tomorrow nights GP meeting.

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/top-stories/

[aussiebreno]

WA know how to promote themselves. Have a look at the Top Stories on the HRA site. There are 5 there, promoting tomorrow nights GP meeting.

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/top-stories/
Pity nobody will be awake to see one of our nations best pacers.

[Messenger]

Kieran Iles from The Bendigo Advertiser is doing a great job of promoting the local industry

https://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/story/6766259/roll-the-highlight-reel-on-regional-harness-racing-video/

[Halwes]

Pity nobody will be awake to see one of our nations best pacers.
And who is that pacer?.. where and what date and time?

A

[hugdon]

Tezza think of the Bull (smiling emoji)

[Messenger]

And who is that pacer?.. where and what date and time?

A

Chicago Bull in the last at Perth Terry

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=GP220520#GPM22052004

[Messenger]

Pity nobody will be awake to see one of our nations best pacers.

You can stay up late on Friday nights Breno because you can go to bed early on Saturday as Melton's last race is 8pm ! :D

[aussiebreno]

You can stay up late on Friday nights Breno because you can go to bed early on Saturday as Melton's last race is 8pm ! :D

Actually fantastic because sometimes I cant see straight by 9pm.

[Halwes]

Na.. don't get I!! why are u teasing me.. just tell me. I am the greatest .. I am the best judge of great pacers .. I do need to see them.😉

[Halwes]

Chicago Bull in the last at Perth Terry

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=GP220520#GPM22052004

Oh ok .. Thanks..didnt see this when I posted below

[Messenger]

Actually fantastic because sometimes I cant see straight by 9pm.

You must be night owls in NSW as the last at Menangle is not until the unseemly hour of 9.20 !

[Halwes]

Oh ok .. Thanks..didnt see this when I posted below

Thanks Kevin
I need your help again.
Some time ago you sent me a fab link that facilitated me in finding meetings, race results and a horse and in particular, I could click then somewhere on that same page on a little icon off that horse , and bingo it would take me to the video off that race
Can you kindly resend it to me..

[Messenger]

Thanks Kevin
I need your help again.
Some time ago you sent me a fab link that facilitated me in finding meetings, race results and a horse and in particular, I could click then somewhere on that same page on a little icon off that horse , and bingo it would take me to the video off that race
Can you kindly resend it to me..

http://www.harness.org.au/index.cfm

Just click on any meeting from Racing or from Results

Just click on any horse and you will see his lifetime Performance Record
and at the end of each start you will generally see an arrow in a circle which takes you to a video replay of that start

You don't have to do that if you are looking at Results for their latest start as at the top of the race result there is the same arrow with the word Play for you to click on

[Messenger]

Improve racing by making it easy for the public to find things

Why should someone, wondering why recent Bendigo star Alex Ashwood is not driving tonight should be able to find the suspended drivers list without needing to have access to Harnessweb

[Messenger]

Make sure we hand down 8 years or more for cheats so that the new generation coming through are afraid to follow in the footsteps of some of the supposed peers of our industry

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Clint-Hall-disqualified-for-eight-years

One cannot possibly believe that this is a one-off. This reflects SO BADLY on our industry, taints his whole family, his friends and all of the industry especially WA