Charges laid in swabbing scandal

[Karloo Krew]

Just released from NSW Police.

Thursday, 24 November 2011 02:54:56 PM
Casino and Racing Investigation Unit detectives have charged three men following investigations into allegations of corruption in the NSW harness-racing industry.
About 8am today (Thursday 24 November 2011), officers attached to Strike Force Tairora executed search warrants at addresses in Plumpton, Leura, Bossley Park and Woonona, north of Wollongong.
As a result of this operation, police arrested:

A 48-year-old Leura man, who was charged with 38 counts of agent receive corrupt benefit. He was refused bail to appear in Lithgow Local Court today (24 November 2011).
A 45-year-old Woonona man, who was charged with eight counts of corruptly give/offer agent benefit. He was granted conditional bail to appear at Wollongong Local Court on 20 December 2011.
A 24 year-old Plumpton man, who was charged with 10 counts of corruptly give/offer agent benefit. He is expected to be granted conditional bail, with a court date yet to be set.
These arrests follow extensive investigations by police into alleged race-fixing and corruption in the harness-racing industry.

Strike Force Tairora comprises detectives from the Firearms and Organised Crime Squad’s Casino and Racing Investigation Unit.
Investigations are continuing.

[David Summers]

Something happening at last , although undoubtedly there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Naturally , all charged are presumed innocent until proven otherwise , but does anyone know OFFICIALLY the names of those charged. I don't see in this release there is any order for suppression of the names.

[bbd]

Something happening at last , although undoubtedly there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Naturally , all charged are presumed innocent until proven otherwise , but does anyone know OFFICIALLY the names of those charged. I don't see in this release there is any order for suppression of the names.

Greg bennett has been stood down. Doesn't say why..

[The Rainmaker]

Greg bennett has been stood down. Doesn't say why..

Greg also lives at Woonona

[coldshot]

Something happening at last , although undoubtedly there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Naturally , all charged are presumed innocent until proven otherwise , but does anyone know OFFICIALLY the names of those charged. I don't see in this release there is any order for suppression of the names.

I just read this by Chris Roots on the Sydney Morning Herald website -

'A NSW premier harness racing driver, a trainer and a former Harness Racing NSW steward have been charged in relation to an alleged race-fixing and corruption scandal.
The steward appeared in Lithgow Local Court this afternoon and was granted conditional bail on 38 counts of agent receive corrupt benefit. He was ordered not to contact four people until he appears in Downing Centre Court on December 8...'


Read more: http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/police-arrests-over-trots-scandal-20111124-1nwlp.html & http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/trots-trio-charged-with-race-fixing-20111124-1nwj4.html

[David Summers]

Greg also lives at Woonona

With respect , so do 10,882 other people.

[ringman]

Greg bennett has been stood down. Doesn't say why..
Because he is under investigation now thats no surprise

[Just Saying]

"They cited Australian Harness Racing Rule 183 which states a driver may be directed not to drive or take part in a race "pending the outcome of an inquiry, investigation or objection, or where a person has been charged with an offence"."

[The Rainmaker]

With respect , so do 10,882 other people.

While you're at it with the Australian Bureau of Statistics website why not see how many of those 10,882 are licenced participants of HRNSW and aged in their mid forties, then tell me how many people you come up with.

[ringman]

While you're at it with the Australian Bureau of Statistics website why not see how many of those 10,882 are licenced participants of HRNSW and aged in their mid forties, then tell me how many people you come up with.

1 G Bennett

[The Rainmaker]

On the money there I'd say ringman

[mightymo]

Paul O toole has been offiically named as the 48 yo Leura man

[Greg Hando]

All good thing's come to those who wait

[triplev123]

...but at the same time I'm bitterly disappointed that it ever got to this point. :(
Ultimately, there are better days are ahead. Of that I'm certain.

[Danno]

may they all (whoever they are, and I'm sure we'll find out EVENTUALLY) get the flick from our game forever. Speaking as an enthusiast who has been a trainer/driver/breeder/administator for over 40 years. The punters may not like cheats but the people who put in the hard yards day in day out so there is something to punt ON! absoltutley despise cheats and this particular case is the most evil we have seen in harness racing in my time. The dropkicks enjoy their time in the sun, pretending their good at what they do and get plenty of accolades from the unsuspecting along the way. I've had my run ins with the stipes plenty of times over minor racing incidents ( and they like everyone are not right all the time) but I hope they nail these bastards properly and I think we should give them the space to do it right.

[David Summers]

Not making any comment with matters before the courts etc. , just looking at past stats. , but can you spot the difference in the following NSW Driver's Premierships?

2006/7 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=0607

2007/08 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=0708

2008/09 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=0809

2009/10 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=0910

2010/2011 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=1011

2011/2012 (to date) http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=1112

[David Summers]

BTW, let's all remember that the corruption matters are now before the courts. Please remember , for the sake of our sport , do not let any of us say anything in these forums that will prejudice the pending cases and let the law take its course.

[Danno]

desperate time call for desperate measures? I think not this has been going on for a while, not just this season.

[ringman]

Yes david it sticks out like a sore thumb, just a guess:rolleyes: my money is on he will be charged with tipping to a group of punters who cleaned up big time

[triplev123]

BTW, let's all remember that the corruption matters are now before the courts. Please remember , for the sake of our sport , do not let any of us say anything in these forums that will prejudice the pending cases and let the law take its course.

[VVV] Amen to that.

[Thevoiceofreason]

This in The Western Advocate some more names from the judge who gave bail.

Trotting steward facing fraud charges
24 Nov, 2011 05:10 PM
LITHGOW Local Court has heard allegations of a leading trotting steward’s role in a race fixing scam that netted him $400,000.
Paul Anthony O’Toole, 48, of Sublime Point Road, Leura, appeared in handcuffs before magistrate Georgia Knight on 34 charges of receiving a corrupt benefit as an agent and four counts of attempting to receive a corrupt benefit.

He was remanded on self recognizance to appear for plea or mention in the Downing Centre local Court on December 8.

In granting bail, Ms Knight said O’Toole must not contact a number of trotting identities including Greg Bennett, Mathew Bentley, Michael Russo, Dean Atkinson and Cameron Fitzpatrick.

He was also ordered to surrender his passport, report to Katoomba police twice weekly and not to go within 500 metres of any international departure point.

[ringman]

This investigation is out of the hands of HRNSW(which is good) so it will result in lots more being charged as the lesser lights in these scams roll over and name names.had the police not stepped in it may well have been a case of just 1 or 2 being outed like in the past decades..... but now jail time is facing them its a different matter.

[racefair]

Not making any comment with matters before the courts etc. , just looking at past stats. , but can you spot the difference in the following NSW Driver's Premierships?

2006/7 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=0607

2007/08 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=0708

2008/09 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=0809

2009/10 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=0910

2010/2011 http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=1011

2011/2012 (to date) http://www.harness.org.au/nsw-premierships.cfm?season_name=1112

The stats on the Trainers Premiership from year to year is also interesting.

[Thevoiceofreason]

The next to go must be the administration that harbourd them. Seems strange Sanders been moved aside must be getting but close to home

Andy you have to be joking it is the administration that uncovered the crime in the first place. They made no attempt to hide it or sweep it under the carpet in fact they came out with a press release on day one it was not the police.

Reid Sanders has moved to head investigator simply to ensure no perception of bias exists that could effect the prosecution ... talk about a trumped up conspiracy theory.

[Pureblonde]

Tiny, What motivates someone to throw mud such as that? I think it that if you read the press release it was clear that they were concerned that as the size of the investigation has grown he wasn't going to be investigator and then sit in judgement. I reckon that is fair enough. But not sure why they added another investigator....looks like the cops are doing a good job joining the dots....hope they keep taking scalps! I must say that their would be some people sleeping restlessly tonight....and so they should. Hope that fat starter O'Toole ejoys meat and three veg.

[CEdwards81]

Bill, obviously you work at hrnsw and are biased, they are an absolute joke and all need to go, the police should have handled this from day one and hrnsw left out of it as the lies and treatment they have given to innocent people is despicable and they need to be held accountable.

[CEdwards81]

Ring man, have loved your posts your are spot one with everything and I agree 100 percent with your views

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill, obviously you work at hrnsw and are biased, they are an absolute joke and all need to go, the police should have handled this from day one and hrnsw left out of it as the lies and treatment they have given to innocent people is despicable and they need to be held accountable.

I do not work at HRNSW of that you can rest assured many who have posted about this Investigation have complained the HRNSW had not done the investigation quickly enough.

HRNSW were just making sure all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed as I have said many times patience was the key here.

It is interesting on the day Paul O'toole was charged, John Elias was found not guilty for his alleged part in another betting scam in Rugby League in part because the judge did not accept the opinion of Ray Murrihy who gave evidence as an expert witness it shows how important it is to get things right and the police did that investigation.

On a final note Chris you sound a touch bitter, I am happy to declare honestly I do not work at HRNSW and have no vested interest in the case at all.

Are you prepared however to declare that you did not receive a letter from them asking you for information, perhaps the bias is a little closer to home, do not get upset ... I am only asking

[David Summers]

It has been reported in the Sydney Morning Herald that the 24 year old who was arrested and charged yesterday in relation to this is harness trainer Michael Russo.

[ringman]

I do not work at HRNSW of that you can rest assured many who have posted about this Investigation have complained the HRNSW had not done the investigation quickly enough.

HRNSW were just making sure all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed as I have said many times patience was the key here.


Surely you are kidding :D:D:D HRNSW tried to keep it all hushed up until the media got hold and blew the thing wide open. Blind Freddy could see a rort was on and HRNSW let it go on and on and on. i would be feeling very nervous now if i was a trainer/driver living within a 20k radius of Menagle because its the police cleaning this mess up not HRNSW.

[ringman]

It has been reported in the Sydney Morning Herald that the 24 year old who was arrested and charged yesterday in relation to this is harness trainer Michael Russo.

SYDNEY'S biggest week of harness racing has been thrown into turmoil after the state's premier driver, Greg Bennett, and one of its former top stewards, Paul O'Toole, were yesterday arrested and charged over alleged corruption in the sport. A third man from Plumpton, believed to be a trainer, was also arrested and charged over the scandal as police executed four search warrants around Sydney at 8am yesterday. The Daily Telegraph understands further charges against other harness racing identities are to be laid as early as today. The moves - the culmination of an investigation of more than three months into race fixing by harness racing officials - come two days before Harness Racing NSW's biggest night, Saturday's Miracle Mile at Menangle.
Bennett, 45, was due to drive Karloo Mick in the Miracle Mile, but was dramatically replaced yesterday by 20-year-old Robbie Morris after being stood down "indefinitely" by HRNSW.







Bennett will face Wollongong Local Court on December 20 facing eight corruption charges. Under Australian Harness Racing rules, a driver can be directed not to participate in a race "pending the outcome of an inquiry, investigation or objection, or where a person has been charged with an offence".
Bennett has been the dominant driver in harness racing for the past decade, and is one of the sport's highest-profile figures, having won multiple premierships.
HRNSW regulatory boss Reid Sanders, who is heading up the body's investigation, said yesterday: "Obviously one of the persons that has been charged today has been stood down by us. That person is entitled to the presumption of innocence. Given the position of our investigation and the nature of the charges and that they relate to the harness racing industry, HRNSW is exercising its powers under the rules to ensure we protect the integrity of the harness racing industry."
Calls to Bennett and his lawyers yesterday were not returned.
Meanwhile, former steward O'Toole appeared in Lithgow Local Court yesterday after he was charged on 38 counts related to corrupt benefits.
His lawyer, Jason Parkinson of Porters Lawyers, told the Telegraph a police statement of facts read out in court referred to listening device material. "I can confirm that my client has been before court today and granted bail," Parkinson said.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Surely you are kidding :D:D:D HRNSW tried to keep it all hushed up until the media got hold and blew the thing wide open. Blind Freddy could see a rort was on and HRNSW let it go on and on and on. i would be feeling very nervous now if i was a trainer/driver living within a 20k radius of Menagle because its the police cleaning this mess up not HRNSW.

Greg

I am sorry but your memory has failed you here, the first anyone, I mean the media knew of this was when this release went out in August on the day it happened by the way.

NEWS ROOM

INTERNAL INVESTIGATION - Stewards Resign

08 August 2011

Whilst undertaking an internal investigation into matters relating to misconduct, HRNSW Stewards Mr Matthew Bentley and Mr Paul O’Toole tendered their resignations today.
Although their resignations have been accepted, effective immediately, the investigation remains ongoing.
Due to the nature of the investigation, HRNSW is unable to make any further comment at this point in time.

Sorry but that does not look like an attempt to hush anything up .. Quite the opposite.

Take pot shots at HRNSW by all means, however if you do at least use live bullets because their are still some of us who appreciate how difficult the task of investigating this has and will continue to be.

[Greg Hando]

Well said Bill HRNSW can't act on hearsay you need hard evidence first and i think they are doing a good job so far

[strong persuader]

Two more arrests........http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/latest_releases?sq_content_src=%2BdXJsPWh0dHBzJTNB JTJGJTJGd3d3LmViaXoucG9saWNlLm5zdy5nb3YuYXUlMkZtZW RpYSUyRjIwMTU4Lmh0bWwmYWxsPTE%3D

"As a result of this operation, detectives today arrested:

A 26-year-old Camden-area man, who was charged with two counts of corruptly give agent benefit and one count of corruptly offer to give agent benefit. He was granted conditional bail to appear at Penrith Local Court on 15 December 2011.
A 47-year-old Goulburn-area man, who was charged with two counts of corruptly give agent benefit and one count of corruptly offer to give agent benefit. He was granted conditional bail to appear at Picton Local Court on 20 December 2011."

Maybe we can add two and two and be right for once, HRNSW have their own media release, http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17207
Cameron Fitzpatrick and Dean Atkinson stood down indefinitely.

[coldshot]

I don't think HRNSW tried to hush anything up, well not as a deliberate policy. I recall reading early on that they undertook a few enquiries going back to when Mr Beattie was still Chief Steward however they led nowhere. This really kicked off when the anonymous whistleblower made the calls that provided sufficient leads for the internal investigation that resulted in the resignation of Paul O'Toole and Mathew Bentley. Of course when two stewards resign under such circumstances HRNSW had to issue a media release as the story was going to break from that point on.

HRNSW has been conducting its investigation as best it can under pressure from participants who, without knowing the details nor understanding the processes (including me), hoped the matter would have been dealt with faster. This is a moot point now that the NSW Police has taken action and I think we can all be thankful that the Police are involved as they have the resources, training and experience to properly investigate these matters.

The bigger picture is that HRNSW is in a no-win situation - the Police have taken the lead in pursuing this matter and those involved, and rightly or wrongly the perception is that this situation may have fizzled out had they not been called in. HRNSW's internal controls and I suppose ability at least initially to investigate itself have been called into question bringing forward the amalgamation of stewards proposal. I think HRNSW's performance - pre and post the anonymous call - will be the subject of review. In this respect maybe the well-connected VVV can shed some light on the labyrinth workings of government and bureaucrats.

For me, I am glad that the matter has moved to another level of activity though bitterly disappointed now that names have been released confirming the rumours that have been floating around - I was hoping in relation to one person that they just weren't true.

[LEGENDAIREY]

Who are they?

[triplev123]

Surely you are kidding :D:D:D HRNSW tried to keep it all hushed up until the media got hold and blew the thing wide open. Blind Freddy could see a rort was on and HRNSW let it go on and on and on. i would be feeling very nervous now if i was a trainer/driver living within a 20k radius of Menagle because its the police cleaning this mess up not HRNSW.


[VVV] Trooper, when all of this unpleasant stuff draws to an end and the real picture of what has happened behind the scenes is finally revealed...I sincerely hope you are enough of a man to make a personal approach to Sam, Reid & the rest of the investigative crew over at HRNSW & apologise profusely to each and every one of them for the series of at best inaccurate & more often than not scurrilous comments and claims that you've seen fit to make on this forum.

[David Summers]

This has just been posted on the Daily Telegraph website: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/leading-trots-driver-cameron-fitzpatrick-and-trainer-dean-atkinson-arrested-and-charged/story-fn67rc85-1226206052953

[triplev123]

Seeing Cameron's name there in print there as having been arrested & charged is the biggest disappointment that I've experienced in 25 years as an Industry participant. He is such a nice fella, he is such a talent & now it seems that it's a big chance of all going to Hell in a hand cart.
I certainly want each and every one of them to face the music and to pay for their transgressions, no question about that whatsoever, but geeze...as completely duplicitous a position as it is, I'd also be lying if I said this one didn't pull at the old heart strings.

[2minuteman]

Never judge a book by its cover.

[ringman]

[VVV] Trooper, when all of this unpleasant stuff draws to an end and the real picture of what has happened behind the scenes is finally revealed...I sincerely hope you are enough of a man to make a personal approach to Sam, Reid & the rest of the investigative crew over at HRNSW & apologise profusely to each and every one of them for the series of at best inaccurate & more often than not scurrilous comments and claims that you've seen fit to make on this forum.

I did contact Sam long before they(HRNSW) released it when the media got wind of what was taking place threatening to go public and he brushed me off.go back and read my earlier posts and see how Accurate i was then you can say sorry if your man enough but your obviously not up with the play thinking the Cawdor team were all above board :p

As for standing in front of any of these and saying what i do thats not a problem i have no fear of anyone.

[mary]

When you say "your odviously not up with the play thinking the Cawdor team were all above board", i can only see Camerons name, so what do you mean???? Why are you implying all????

I did contact Sam long before they(HRNSW) released it when the media got wind of what was taking place threatening to go public and he brushed me off.go back and read my earlier posts and see how Accurate i was then you can say sorry if your man enough but your obviously not up with the play thinking the Cawdor team were all above board :p

As for standing in front of any of these and saying what i do thats not a problem i have no fear of anyone.

[triplev123]

I did contact Sam long before they(HRNSW) released it when the media got wind of what was taking place threatening to go public and he brushed me off.
[VVV] Well Trooper, straight up I know for a fact that's bullshit because (1) Sam doesn't brush anyone off & (2) HRNSW were the ones who initially told the media about it all and they also requested that the NSW Police become involved.
Nobody ever threatened to go public with anything prior to that and whatsmore nothing was ever going to be nor will it ever be kept quiet.
It's also a matter of public record that the NSW Police suggested to HRNSW that they cease with their (at the time) regular public statements and updates, hence the general lack of comment from them on the subject since that time. Always do your homework because an attempted re-inventing of history is a risky business mate. Our esteemed PM has found that out...in Spades.

go back and read my earlier posts and see how Accurate i was then you can say sorry if your man enough but your obviously not up with the play thinking the Cawdor team were all above board :p
[VVV] A reasonably deft enough attempt at a change of direction and a bit of a scoot up the blind-side but alas...the Breakaway saw you coming.
This is not & it never was a question of your past accuracies because a defence they simply do not afford you in this instance.
Rather it is a question of the accuracy of your current raft of comments... and in particular your assertion that HRNSW would have hushed it up & nothing would have happened if the NSW Police had not become involved.
The facts of the matter are, the Police did not invite themselves, rather they were asked, initially you could say to some extent very strongly encouraged to verging on being pushed to become involved by HRNSW.
It was never at any stage something that was thrust upon HRNSW by outside elements. Again, homework my friend, homework.
As for your besmirching the repuations of Paul, Blake & Gavin by attempting to link them to the alleged transgressions of Cameron, you should be ashamed of yourself however exposed form suggests you may not possess that capacity.

As for standing in front of any of these and saying what i do thats not a problem i have no fear of anyone.
[VVV] It's easy to talk 10ft tall & bullet proof whilst banging away on a wesbite.
I doubt you have the Cajones to repeat those words straight to their faces.



Regards

Jaimie

[mary]

:)Thanks Jamie for saying what i was trying to say regarding the the Fitzpatricks, its sad about Cameron but leave the others out of it. Im new at this but that ringman bugged me saying what he said.
Regards Mary

Jaimie

[triplev123]

:)Thanks Jamie for saying what i was trying to say regarding the the Fitzpatricks, its sad about Cameron but leave the others out of it. Im new at this but that ringman bugged me saying what he said.

[VVV] You're welcome Mary.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Well said VVV if only I get you sweet on COT's and relegat ..no I cannot even type the word, all will be good

[David Summers]

Mary, ringman has in the past and still now rubs a lot of posters the wrong way as you can see in this thread. Needs to spend a lot more thought before posting often rather inflammatory and ill-informed views. From what I see , for some unknown reason , he seems to have a vendetta against Sam Nati.

[triplev123]

David, I suspect that Ringman suffers from 'Fashion Envy' and that his venom stems from the fact that he was the one time (and now very envious but nonetheless previous) owner of that rather dreadful Puffy Pirate Shirt that Sam is given to wearing from time to time. :rolleyes:
http://media.smithsonianmag.com/images/object_shirt.jpg

[Thevoiceofreason]

My grandmother once told me "you should never worry about the opinions of people who you are sure posses less intelligence than yourself".... I never knew she knew Greg.

[aussiebreno]

It is better to be thought of as an idiot than to open ones mouth and confirm it.

[ringman]

Here is your wonder boy SAM and he let the bloke keep on driving to do more damage

A racecourse insider said of the driver's meeting with the chief executive of Harness Racing NSW, Sam Nati: "Driver X [name withheld by the Herald] met with Sam and took along his parents. He put his hands up to being involved in two races that were hot, but it became clear that Sam knew of more involvement and that this wasn't going to be something that could be hushed up."
The driver has confirmed the meeting but denied making any admission of illegal activity. His father told the Herald: ''Yeah, I met Sam for a beer and my son came along. There's nothing unusual or illegal in that.''
Asked if they had discussed corruption, he replied: ''We didn't talk about nothing.''
Last night, Mr Nati said: "We have had a number of informal discussions with various participants. But who those people are and what was discussed is confidential until such time as they are formally interviewed as part of the investigation.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/trots-driver-free-to-race-despite-fraud-admission-20110901-1jo56.html#ixzz1ehMPhCzJ

[aussiebreno]

Here is your wonder boy SAM and he let the bloke keep on driving to do more damage

A racecourse insider said of the driver's meeting with the chief executive of Harness Racing NSW, Sam Nati: "Driver X [name withheld by the Herald] met with Sam and took along his parents. He put his hands up to being involved in two races that were hot, but it became clear that Sam knew of more involvement and that this wasn't going to be something that could be hushed up."
The driver has confirmed the meeting but denied making any admission of illegal activity. His father told the Herald: ''Yeah, I met Sam for a beer and my son came along. There's nothing unusual or illegal in that.''
Asked if they had discussed corruption, he replied: ''We didn't talk about nothing.''
Last night, Mr Nati said: "We have had a number of informal discussions with various participants. But who those people are and what was discussed is confidential until such time as they are formally interviewed as part of the investigation.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/trots-driver-free-to-race-despite-fraud-admission-20110901-1jo56.html#ixzz1ehMPhCzJ

As soon as possible under the rules of racing Fitzpatrick has been sat out?

[Greg Hando]

Here is your wonder boy SAM and he let the bloke keep on driving to do more damage

A racecourse insider said of the driver's meeting with the chief executive of Harness Racing NSW, Sam Nati: "Driver X [name withheld by the Herald] met with Sam and took along his parents. He put his hands up to being involved in two races that were hot, but it became clear that Sam knew of more involvement and that this wasn't going to be something that could be hushed up."
The driver has confirmed the meeting but denied making any admission of illegal activity. His father told the Herald: ''Yeah, I met Sam for a beer and my son came along. There's nothing unusual or illegal in that.''
Asked if they had discussed corruption, he replied: ''We didn't talk about nothing.''
Last night, Mr Nati said: "We have had a number of informal discussions with various participants. But who those people are and what was discussed is confidential until such time as they are formally interviewed as part of the investigation.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/trots-driver-free-to-race-despite-fraud-admission-20110901-1jo56.html#ixzz1ehMPhCzJ


I think that even though he may have admitted to being in on the sting's it is still only hear say and would have to proven before you could be suspended etc

[CEdwards81]

Hey Jamie u still wear those earrings old mate..?

[David Summers]

You mean these ones? I thought they always looked pretty classy :cool:

110

[admin]

Since we're already onto earrings...

Quick note to say I've deleted a lot of posts in this thread. Most were ringman's, but some others were replies to his comments which out of context didn't make much sense, so those are gone too. Remember people, if your unhappy about something someone posts, it's best to click the triangle/exclamation icon under that post and a moderator will review it. If you reply you just get sucked in which is usually what they want.

[David Summers]

Well done , Jules , not before time.

[CEdwards81]

Come on Jamie.......show us those earrings???

[strong persuader]

This article, http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/two-more-arrests-in-drug-scandal-20111125-1nz2h.html makes for very interesting reading.

[triplev123]

Come on Jamie.......show us those earrings???

You need to use the singular there, as in I only have one, had it since I was about 16...with your point being?

[triplev123]

This article, http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/two-more-arrests-in-drug-scandal-20111125-1nz2h.html makes for very interesting reading.


[VVV] That's so bad. Two more went down last night in the Central West I believe. :(
No doubt it will come out soon enough. I was pretty shocked when I heard the names.

[CEdwards81]

Come on Jamie they tell me you would fit right in at Carnivale with the earrings you have been seen in down at meadowbank!

[David Summers]

Chris, are you sure you are not wearing this while you are posting here?

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[CEdwards81]

Nah I've moved up the alphabet Dave!

[triplev123]

Come on Jamie they tell me you would fit right in at Carnivale with the earrings you have been seen in down at meadowbank!


[VVV] Meadowbank? I think you've got me confused with someone else Chris. I've certainly been around and about over the years but it has been a long, long time since I have been to Meadowbank. Btw, why the hang up on earings anyway may I ask?

[CEdwards81]

Nah I don't mind a good earring myself mate! Just trying to make it a bit light hearted after all the crap going on!

[triplev123]

Fair enough. Trevor Swan has a Prince Albert btw. :rolleyes:

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Seeing Cameron's name there in print there as having been arrested & charged is the biggest disappointment that I've experienced in 25 years as an Industry participant. He is such a nice fella, he is such a talent & now it seems that it's a big chance of all going to Hell in a hand cart.
I certainly want each and every one of them to face the music and to pay for their transgressions, no question about that whatsoever, but geeze...as completely duplicitous a position as it is, I'd also be lying if I said this one didn't pull at the old heart strings.
Yeah, real nice fella. Bet you wouldn't play cards with him though.

[Diesel]

Those named and charged are just fringe players...........
Stand by for the Big Guns.....

[jimmy777]

Those named and charged are just fringe players...........
Stand by for the Big Guns.....
Couldn't agree more with you Diesel

[Thevoiceofreason]

Those named and charged are just fringe players...........
Stand by for the Big Guns.....

If Paul O'Toole is a bit player at $400,000 then there is a lot more money in Harness racing than I have been led to believe.

[LEGENDAIREY]

No pity what so ever if any of these are convicted, banned for life no excuses!

[Big Max]

Could not agree more Legendairy,enough's enough!

[A BIT DUSTY]

The Newcastle Morning Herald has a story in todays paper saying that Greg Sarina trained horses won 12 of the 38 races that Paul O'tool has been charged with ,including a treble on the won day at Goulburn

[Diesel]

If Paul O'Toole is a bit player at $400,000 then there is a lot more money in Harness racing than I have been led to believe.

O'Toole and Bentley were receiving...........
Those paying havent been revealed........YET.

[Diesel]

The Newcastle Morning Herald has a story in todays paper saying that Greg Sarina trained horses won 12 of the 38 races that Paul O'tool has been charged with ,including a treble on the won day at Goulburn

100% correct.....
Makes for interesting reading.
I know one big mouthed member of the family is shitting in his pants.....AND SHOULD BE.

[Diesel]

Twelve of the horses mentioned in the 38 races involving charges against O'Toole were prepared at the stables of Riverstone trainer Greg Sarina. Serene Major, which has since moved to another stable, scored four wins for Sarina in races mentioned in the corruption charges. The first three wins of stablemate Serene Jasper, which has won five of his seven, were all part of the charges against O'Toole. The Sarina stable had a winning treble at the Goulburn meeting on January 7 and all three also appeared on O'Toole's charge sheet.
The charges against O'Toole are that he corruptly received for himself and for Matthew Bentley, another former Harness Racing NSW steward, a benefit as a reward for not drug-testing horses


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/two-more-arrests-in-drug-scandal-20111125-1nz2h.html#ixzz1eo1b2nkM

[tiny]

http://letsgohorseracing.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2013:activities-of-harness-media-identity-from-qld-now-part-of-nsw-corruption-inquiry&catid=41:vic-a-nsw&Itemid=68


And the media person

[PD13]

If Paul O'Toole is a bit player at $400,000 then there is a lot more money in Harness racing than I have been led to believe.
What about proceeds of crime etc? Take there homes, assets and whatever else squares the ledger. When all the races involved are highlighted, have he punters who lost money on bets make Civil claims against these crims. What about the owners of participants in these races that pay monthly bills and now find that they had no chance of a shot at the Winner's cheque?

[strong persuader]

A few random thoughts, O'Toole is charged on 38 counts, has proceeds of over $400k! He must have been backing them big to make that as it is spoken of that he received at best $1,000 per horse or, God forbid, there are a lot more that he hasn't been charged with at this point.

His two counterparts arrested on Thursday have 19 counts between them, the two arrested on Friday have 6 counts between them. That leaves at least 13 more episodes to be answered for and Bentley's account has yet to be mentioned, so how many does he add to the count?

It still appears to be a case of more questions than answers at this point, though it is nice to see that the web that was woven is starting to unravel.

[sharkie]

Where is Bently why has'nt he faced the music yet...... or has he disappeared ????

[CEdwards81]

Bently is either innocent or very smart.....or a combination of the two?

[Greg Hando]

None of the above Chris

[tiny]

I think he's in Macau. Herd he was sharing a unit with his old boss.

[CEdwards81]

Why have the police not charged him when they got otoole?

[tiny]

O toole told them everything. Bentley said nothing like all lawyers do and I don't think they have much on him.

[Thevoiceofreason]

I think he's in Macau. Herd he was sharing a unit with his old boss.
This rumor has been doing the rounds since the arrests started on Thursday, I very much doubt the validity of this one, neither Bentley or O'Toole were very close to their old boss.

In fact many in the industry will tell you they were doing their best to undermine him perhaps they wanted him out of the way.

[2minuteman]

Nice to have civil exchanges of opinion and views instead of gratuitous garbage abuse.Thanks.
P.S. Interesting to see if we have a new poster with similar contempt for others' opinions any time soon.

[David Summers]

Nice to have civil exchanges of opinion and views instead of gratuitous garbage abuse.Thanks.
P.S. Interesting to see if we have a new poster with similar contempt for others' opinions any time soon.

Ron, if we are both thinking of the same nasty person , he has been banned by Admin from posting further in this thread. Good riddance !

[sharkie]

i have heard on the rumour mill that paul o'toole has a sick family member and he needed fast cash for on going medical treatment, i hope that not be the case because if its true its a very ordinary way to raise money, the harness racing family are a generous bunch it would be a much better way to fund medical treatment then ripping every one off.......

[PD13]

i have heard on the rumour mill that paul o'toole has a sick family member and he needed fast cash for on going medical treatment, i hope that not be the case because if its true its a very ordinary way to raise money, the harness racing family are a generous bunch it would be a much better way to fund medical treatment then ripping every one off.......

There quite often is a sob story or some bad childhood upbringing etc. Grubs like this in the 'hot seat' will exagerate anything to earn sympathy votes. There are thousands of badly sick people in our community but their relatives don't go out robbing others to fund treatment etc.

[Greg Hando]

ADHD or Bipolar probably isn't that the in thing ha ha

[Luigi13]

Bentley is helping strikeforce with there investigations. Hope that answers your q's.

[Danno]

[QUOTE=Luigi13;13399]Bentley is helping strikeforce with there investigations. Hope that answers your q's.

Thanks Luigi,

nice to hear there's some co-operation going on!!!!!ha ha

[Racewriter71]

I hear he is somewhere in Asia working as a bloodstock agent. Hope that helps!

[triplev123]

On a related note, I expect the turnover at Rivo Pizza is set to drop away considerably in the near future as no doubt will the Bar takings at the Bowling Club. 'knock knock knock..... :rolleyes:

[tiny]

So what will tomorrow bring???

[triplev123]

If tomorrow is just Monday, then who knows. If tomorrow is meaning 'in the near future' then I expect it'll be more people getting carted away by the Strike Force. When the arrests began to happen for me it was a weird feeling, a combination of relief tinged with both elation and nausea.
I just hope the Strike Force absolutely smashes all those who've played a part and of those that for whatever reason they can't proceed against that the Regulatory arm of HRNSW steps up and duly smashes the rest of them....and then we can get on with it.
Come January 1st the prizemoney at Menangle's going to boot through the roof...and it's going to be the greatest show on earth and that's what I want to focus on. Not all this God awful crap.

[Daryl New]

Steady up only one person within 20 ks of Menangle has been implicated , but your supposed occupation could make you a suspect

[PD13]

Bentley is helping strikeforce with there investigations. Hope that answers your q's.

There will be a few that start squealing like stuck pigs to hopefully avoid having their ring a ding dings expanded to the size of dinner plates in the Big House. At the least, it will cost these paaaalenty in Legal Defence bills.

[PD13]

Has anyone else heard the rumour that the brother of one prominent trainer will be taking a fall so that he can remain in the game? When the truth comes out, it will be difficult to take the blame.

[Starship Captain]

Interesting
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/superracing/dark-cloud-hangs-over-trots-as-harness-racing-scandal-takes-grip/story-fn67m7qu-1226207414880


2011 Walkley Awards for Excellence in Journalism Winners
Best Sports Journalism
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3300470.htm

[strong persuader]

Best Sports Journalism
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3300470.htm
Took the time to watch this again, can anyone tell me the driver who flashes across the screen in the first footage of actual harness racing?
May be wrong, but it struck me as prophetic if it is who I think it is...........

[triplev123]

Steady up only one person within 20 ks of Menangle has been implicated , but your supposed occupation could make you a suspect


[VVV] Geeze, don't be such a bloody drama queen Daryl.
That comment of mine [Come January 1st the prizemoney at Menangle's going to boot through the roof...and it's going to be the greatest show on earth and that's what I want to focus on. Not all this God awful crap.] was quite clearly meant in the context of Menangle's soon to be prizemoney increases being the one shining light, the beacon of hope on the horizon upon which to focus , & not as you've taken it to mean there was any involvement by the locals. Fair dinkum.

[Diesel]

Quite a few of one particular trainers horses are changing hands for some reason.......
He has been named..........
Not nominating any either..?????

Just a matter of time til he gets a knock on the door.

[Diesel]

Has anyone else heard the rumour that the brother of one prominent trainer will be taking a fall so that he can remain in the game? When the truth comes out, it will be difficult to take the blame.

Has the "innocent" brother been arrested already???

[LEGENDAIREY]

rumor has it the Sarina's are involved why?

[A BIT DUSTY]

If you go back and read a previous thread I posted on here you will read a story about Greg Sarina training 12 winners of the 38 races that Paul O'toole has been charged over

[PD13]

Has the "innocent" brother been arrested already???

Not that I'm aware of but I haven't listened to any radio or TV today. The bro in question has a 5 letter surname.

[Howard]

Harness Racing NSW is starting to turn the corner.Forget those who say the industry will never recover.Its the beginning of a great era.The industry needed to weed out the parasites and vermin in order to progress.May the innocent be set free and the guilty be given life bans!

[Thevoiceofreason]

Things just got a lot clearer

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/trots-scandal-37-suspect-races-revealed/story-fn67rc85-1226208522129

[Diesel]

Things just got a lot clearer

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/trots-scandal-37-suspect-races-revealed/story-fn67rc85-1226208522129

As previously stated..........The Big Guns are still out there.
37 races listed seem to be O'Tooles info
If you scroll through these 37 a pattern appears.
Apart from the ones already arrested its easy to work out the big players.....
One particular driver appears quite regularly.

Dont be fooled.......there are plenty more races under suspicion.

[triplev123]

Harness Racing NSW is starting to turn the corner.Forget those who say the industry will never recover.Its the beginning of a great era.The industry needed to weed out the parasites and vermin in order to progress.May the innocent be set free and the guilty be given life bans!

[VVV] I'll Second that. Well said Howard.

[Starship Captain]

There is no wonder some people are considering getting out of the industry for a while. It's terrible what has taken place.
the guilty be given life bans! Amen

[PD13]

Looking at the time inbetween some of the 37 races highlighted, not all has been revealed or declared. They are just the races O'Toole has stated he has involvement with. If the $430,000 reported is true, then there are many many more races involved. 1 man, 37 races, $430K........ That's $11,621 average per race. He wasn't getting that much. How they are going to promote this Sport is certainly going to be a huge job. I'd rather be Gillard trying to sell NBN or Climate Change.

[G-Mac]

Looking at the time inbetween some of the 37 races highlighted, not all has been revealed or declared. They are just the races O'Toole has stated he has involvement with. If the $430,000 reported is true, then there are many many more races involved. 1 man, 37 races, $430K........ That's $11,621 average per race. He wasn't getting that much. How they are going to promote this Sport is certainly going to be a huge job. I'd rather be Gillard trying to sell NBN or Climate Change.

I understand where you are coming from as it doesn't look good right now. But after the dust has settled HRNSW can put its hand up and say "We have had the Police go through this sport and clear out the deadbeats, it is now clean". Not many other sports can say that. Not many have just opened the books and invited such a purge. Brighter days are ahead.

[Just Saying]

I feel much more confident when people are actually getting caught. There's ALWAYS some sort of corruption going on.

[coldshot]

I understand where you are coming from as it doesn't look good right now. But after the dust has settled HRNSW can put its hand up and say "We have had the Police go through this sport and clear out the deadbeats, it is now clean". Not many other sports can say that. Not many have just opened the books and invited such a purge. Brighter days are ahead.

HRNSW can't and won't say that, and it would be unfair to expect it to. I hope that everything is water-tight re the legal aspects so that where charges are made the evidence/process is strong enough for them to stick. I'm sure we will have a cleaner sport after all of this but wider confidence will take some time to return. At least we will be moving forwards. The people involved should be thoroughly thoroughly ashamed of themselves. By the time this is all over the cost of the investigation, legal advice, etc will probably be on a par with the ill-gotten gains. :mad:

[LEGENDAIREY]

Where ever money is involved there will always be corruption! there are a lot more out there that use different ways to either win a race or pull there horses up especially when favorite, I have been following Harness racing for over 30 years and i have seen quite a lot, I won't mention any names but there is on fellow that never tried on a favorite unless it was a big win prize or he was on a roughie, and what i am saying is fact, i used to keep data bases on all horses Trials, Sales, Wins And Mile Rates etc, i used to earn a second income, but the past 2 years has been unbelievable, you can throw any type of form out the window as horses being beaten by 40 metres on there merits are winning their next starts. How?? Unless they have a little help!! It's impossible for them to show form reversal. In saying that on hearing that there is 37 plus races that are under scrutiny tells me that i had no chance of investing my money for a return. All areas of a harness race need to be looked at here's a few.
1.Any horse or driver leading with slow sectionals, both be banned for 3 months. there should be a minimum set of lead times for all distances.
2.Favorites that that don't perform to expectations, both be banned for 3 months.
3.Form reversal horses beaten out of sight last start barring an incident, both be banned for 3 months.
4.If a trainer has 2 or more in a race and one is favorite but doesn't put in an effort and is beaten by a stablemate, every endeavor should be made by stewards to find out why, because there are many races where the favorite or form horse loses when it should have had every thing going for it to win unless it fell over.
These are only a few incidences that need addressing and if HRNSW want integrity back in this sport they need too think that it the punting public that keeps them afloat and the more they are betting on bad investments because of corruptness the more they will give it away.

[p plater]

Legendairey

If we adopted your suggestions, especially 3 what would you do with the recently USA returned trainer and his horse from race 11 at Menangle today.

[aussiebreno]

Where ever money is involved there will always be corruption! there are a lot more out there that use different ways to either win a race or pull there horses up especially when favorite, I have been following Harness racing for over 30 years and i have seen quite a lot, I won't mention any names but there is on fellow that never tried on a favorite unless it was a big win prize or he was on a roughie, and what i am saying is fact, i used to keep data bases on all horses Trials, Sales, Wins And Mile Rates etc, i used to earn a second income, but the past 2 years has been unbelievable, you can throw any type of form out the window as horses being beaten by 40 metres on there merits are winning their next starts. How?? Unless they have a little help!! It's impossible for them to show form reversal. In saying that on hearing that there is 37 plus races that are under scrutiny tells me that i had no chance of investing my money for a return. All areas of a harness race need to be looked at here's a few.
1.Any horse or driver leading with slow sectionals, both be banned for 3 months. there should be a minimum set of lead times for all distances. Stupid rule already let alone what youre suggesting. Why is it the leaders perogative to set a faster time and in something subjective like racing who's to say what a minimum lead time should be anyway.
2.Favorites that that don't perform to expectations, both be banned for 3 months. I know of $1.04 shot; 2nd fave was at $21 and nothing else was under $50 until a minute before the race who got an easy lead and failed in a time well outside of its best just 9months ago. Nothing sinister in it except the horse didn't show up. You can't make rules like this.
3.Form reversal horses beaten out of sight last start barring an incident, both be banned for 3 months. Yeah great rule. Not. So I have horse that genuinely improves; I have to play around with it at its next 3 or 4 starts to show that improvement before I'm allowed to win just so I don't get banned. Also disallows say 5 horses in each race winning simply because it would be a form reversal. Who's to police such subjective rules. Lol.
4.If a trainer has 2 or more in a race and one is favorite but doesn't put in an effort and is beaten by a stablemate, every endeavor should be made by stewards to find out why, because there are many races where the favorite or form horse loses when it should have had every thing going for it to win unless it fell over.
These are only a few incidences that need addressing and if HRNSW want integrity back in this sport they need too think that it the punting public that keeps them afloat and the more they are betting on bad investments because of corruptness the more they will give it away.
Yes its terrible what has been going on but those aren't the answers I'm afraid.

[triplev123]

Legendairey

If we adopted your suggestions, especially 3 what would you do with the recently USA returned trainer and his horse from race 11 at Menangle today.


[VVV] Darren took that horse to the top and he simply bottomed out the field...you'll note that each quarter went by progressively slower than the previous 26.4, 28.1, 28.4 & 29.0.
What you saw there was a classic example of speed holding up on the front end on a track that is approaching being lightning fast now...and it was a lesson in how that track should be driven. The US drivers do exactly that day in day out over the mile and nobody give it so much as a second thought. Btw...inferring there was some sort of nefaious behaviour involved by way of a throw away 'recently USA returned trainer'...is not a very charitable thing to do.

[The Rainmaker]

1.Any horse or driver leading with slow sectionals, both be banned for 3 months. there should be a minimum set of lead times for all distances.

[TR] So a leader of any given race should go faster in the early stages to its own detriment to set it up so that horses at the back of the field have a better chance of running them down? No other driver in the race should ever show initiative and go forward to the death seat to force the pace or contest the lead in the first place?

2.Favorites that that don't perform to expectations, both be banned for 3 months.

[TR] Because horses are machines and every favourite should win every race and every horse should perform at its best every start? Who decides on the expectations? A favourite runs second on its merits so ban it? Be a pretty ordinary sport if every horse finished where the punters think they should according to the market, wouldnt really be horse racing or punting would it?

3.Form reversal horses beaten out of sight last start barring an incident, both be banned for 3 months.

[TR] What about horses dropping back in class? Contest a final at Menangle on Saturday night or strong Tuesday race, then drop back to a weak race at Penrith/Bathurst etc. then win? They should be banned? Smart punters see when certain form reversals are on the cards and take full advantage.


4.If a trainer has 2 or more in a race and one is favorite but doesn't put in an effort and is beaten by a stablemate, every endeavor should be made by stewards to find out why, because there are many races where the favorite or form horse loses when it should have had every thing going for it to win unless it fell over.

[TR] Agreed, however look at the Pizzuto case with Franco Torres and Our Amazing Art afew months ago, HRNSW put the writing on the wall to make examples of such tactics and will hopefully continue to do so.
.

[TR] My main involvment with Harness Racing is punting, and I want to see the sport cleaned up like everyone else here, but I think most of the points you have made here are contradictory and have nothing to do with cleaning the sport up at all.

In point 1 a favourite leads in a slow lead time and wins, should it get banned?

Or the favourite in point 1 runs a quick lead time and gets beat on its merits, does it get banned?

Or a horse with an ordinary performance last start, starts favourite and wins, does it get a ban?

Its punters like you they've tried to cater for with stupid things such as the Change Of Tactics farce here in NSW, by being spoon fed. If you cant handle the thought of losing, dont have a bet.

[p plater]

[VVV] Darren took that horse to the top and he simply bottomed out the field...you'll note that each quarter went by progressively slower than the previous 26.4, 28.1, 28.4 & 29.0.
What you saw there was a classic example of speed holding up on the front end on a track that is approaching being lightning fast now...and it was a lesson in how that track should be driven. The US drivers do exactly that day in day out over the mile and nobody give it so much as a second thought. Btw...inferring there was some sort of nefaious behaviour involved by way of a throw away 'recently USA returned trainer'...is not a very charitable thing to do.

You may be correct but to be unplaced the previous 13 starts and a personal beaten best of 1.55.4 at Menangle 2 weeks ago.........Hmmmmm thats some improvement

[triplev123]

You may be correct but to be unplaced the previous 13 starts and a personal beaten best of 1.55.4 at Menangle 2 weeks ago.........Hmmmmm thats some improvement

[VVV] The horse could have had a myriad of problems holding it back and maybe Darren has been able to get over the top of them. Who knows? If you asked him I'm sure he'd tell you.
That's also the horse's 5th start back from a spell, his 1st two were over the 2300m, his next two were over the mile beaten 6m & 9m & both times while in against significantly stronger company than today, only form in today's field was Tim Butt's horse River Field & he was like a Cello Player in a Marching Band he got back so far behind the leader. To the front and keep on rolling. Speed holds. If he sits up and leaves anything in the legs of River Field then Butt runs him down. Watch a few of Darren's drives on Vegas Bound when he was on song, they were exactly the same. Go to the top & bottom out the field. There's nothing suspicious about it. I wish that more of them would drive the track that way.

[racefair]

[QUOTE=triplev123;13502][VVV] The horse could have had a myriad of problems holding it back and maybe Darren has been able to get over the top of them. Who knows? If you asked him I'm sure he'd tell you.

Hi [vvv],I find your analysis interesting. Can you suggest what problem/s could be worked out that would give a 3.5 sec improvement?

[Diesel]

Hi [vvv],I find your analysis interesting. Can you suggest what problem/s could be worked out that would give a 3.5 sec improvement?[/QUOTE]

Careful fellas there are some protected topics in here......Dont question a Hancock.
It wasnt that long ago Mr Pizzuto was given a roasting in here for his drive and ultimately got 12 months. Luke McCarthy had a similar situation on Saturday night and an enquiry has been opened BUT NOT A WORD OF IT IN HERE.......

Matt Rue should be looking at a similar suspension if they are consistent.

[William]

It did look very ordinary on Saturday night, I have to agree.

[p plater]

[QUOTE=triplev123;13502][VVV] The horse could have had a myriad of problems holding it back and maybe Darren has been able to get over the top of them. Who knows? If you asked him I'm sure he'd tell you.

Hi [vvv],I find your analysis interesting. Can you suggest what problem/s could be worked out that would give a 3.5 sec improvement?

Maybe the timing was out, based on times he's improved about 46m and would have lead Smoken Up by 17m at the 400m mark

[Greg Hando]

Where ever money is involved there will always be corruption! there are a lot more out there that use different ways to either win a race or pull there horses up especially when favorite, I have been following Harness racing for over 30 years and i have seen quite a lot, I won't mention any names but there is on fellow that never tried on a favorite unless it was a big win prize or he was on a roughie, and what i am saying is fact, i used to keep data bases on all horses Trials, Sales, Wins And Mile Rates etc, i used to earn a second income, but the past 2 years has been unbelievable, you can throw any type of form out the window as horses being beaten by 40 metres on there merits are winning their next starts. How?? Unless they have a little help!! It's impossible for them to show form reversal. In saying that on hearing that there is 37 plus races that are under scrutiny tells me that i had no chance of investing my money for a return. All areas of a harness race need to be looked at here's a few.
1.Any horse or driver leading with slow sectionals, both be banned for 3 months. there should be a minimum set of lead times for all distances.
2.Favorites that that don't perform to expectations, both be banned for 3 months.
3.Form reversal horses beaten out of sight last start barring an incident, both be banned for 3 months.
4.If a trainer has 2 or more in a race and one is favorite but doesn't put in an effort and is beaten by a stablemate, every endeavor should be made by stewards to find out why, because there are many races where the favorite or form horse loses when it should have had every thing going for it to win unless it fell over.
These are only a few incidences that need addressing and if HRNSW want integrity back in this sport they need too think that it the punting public that keeps them afloat and the more they are betting on bad investments because of corruptness the more they will give it away.

G'gay Ron i like your rule no 1 about leading in races and the time that should be run
well thank's for the SCOOP about the sectional times their has been a policy in place for every track for time limit's for the first half of the last mile for a few season's now and is in place and enforced so perhap's you could cross number 1 out along with no 2 do you ever have an off day horses do as well
No 3 yes form reversal should be looked into more aggressively and no 4 they already have inquiries for this just my thought's

[Just Saying]

Careful fellas there are some protected topics in here......Dont question a Hancock.
It wasnt that long ago Mr Pizzuto was given a roasting in here for his drive and ultimately got 12 months. Luke McCarthy had a similar situation on Saturday night and an enquiry has been opened BUT NOT A WORD OF IT IN HERE.......

Matt Rue should be looking at a similar suspension if they are consistent.
http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?1757-Onya-Fred&p=13393&viewfull=1#post13393

[Greg Hando]

[QUOTE=triplev123;13502][VVV] The horse could have had a myriad of problems holding it back and maybe Darren has been able to get over the top of them. Who knows? If you asked him I'm sure he'd tell you.

Hi [vvv],I find your analysis interesting. Can you suggest what problem/s could be worked out that would give a 3.5 sec improvement?

Shoeing would be a good start then you have feed,treatment's,work loads,any any other number of thing's

[Howard]

Heres my answer to making NSW Harness racing the showpiece of Australian racing of all codes.Enjoy the wisdom of "Howards Reforms"

1. Put every horse in its own sectioned off alley and race them in a straight line.This will eliminate the back row handicap.The sectioned off alley means that false starts will be a thing of the past.No more drivers putting up their hand to signal broken gear and quickly jumping off to unbuckle a strap.
There will be no "unfortunate" locking of wheels (sorry Robbie B) and of course your horse wont need to deal with tight turns so bowed tendons,broken pedal bones etc etc will be less likely.This will please the RSPCA but your local vet might have to have to cancel his order for a third yacht for his Tahiti marina


2.Have a mechanical driver,all of the same weight and ability.Its not as if you need to have a thinking mans brain in it.Heck Vince Silvestro can drive a horse standing in a gig with his teeth and firecrackers going off everywhere,yet put him in a race and he instantly reverts to the standard moronic monotonous merry go round follow the leader Sydney style of racing.Ive asked Josh W if driving is rocket science and he said "errrr ummm yeah yeah no, no,no its not rocket science".

3. No swabbing of any sort.Yes youve read right,no swabbing.Every horse will be filled to the eyeballs.Its all even.Do i hear a "here here" from David W and Peter M??
NSW harness racing wouldnt be in this predicament if this (no) law was in place.There wont be any bribing of any steward because theres nothing they can tell you that you dont already know! Its human nature for a mere mortal commoner to spill the beans on classified information for cash.I mean before you know it you can trade in your old Datsun 180b for a new Bentley.Even the dumbest Toole would be in that.

4. Cost cutting.No need for more than 1 steward whos only job is to officiate the photo finish.After that you need a handicapper who can also take on the important roles of ordering lunch and making coffee for that 1 steward and diverting calls from disgruntled industry participants to a disconnected number.Good news for the present 30 odd dead wood public servants in the Bankstown HRA office-the Employment Solutions Office is located just a short distance down to Meredith St.Perhaps you can all use your organisation skills to car pool.Perhaps.......

Which brings me on to Sam Nati.Yes hes young, very bright and is turning the industry on its head.He is man enough to get up and finally say enough is enough.I salute you for being a true great leader.However in my reforms there is no place for a executive with a salary of 800k plus.Quite simply your position will be obsolete.
However on the odd occasion we do need a ruler i say we go straight to the top.Im not talking Prime Minister Gillard or Her Excellency the Governor General Quentin Bryce.Im talking even higher than Kylie Minogue.Yes i think our head of state Queen Elizabeth should be granted final say over all matters involving Harness Racing NSW.The old duck hasnt got too much on her hands these days.She also likes racing.Maybe Chemical Ali can sell her 1 of the 8 50% shares he will offer in his next NZ purchase?

Thankyou for reading Howards Reforms

"God Save the Queen because nothing will save you when task force Tairora arrives at your stable" Howard Taylor. November 30 2011

[LEGENDAIREY]

G'gay Ron i like your rule no 1 about leading in races and the time that should be run
well thank's for the SCOOP about the sectional times their has been a policy in place for every track for time limit's for the first half of the last mile for a few season's now and is in place and enforced so perhap's you could cross number 1 out along with no 2 do you ever have an off day horses do as well
No 3 yes form reversal should be looked into more aggressively and no 4 they already have inquiries for this just my thought's

Hi Greg thanks for responding to my quip. When i say that favorites don't put in i mean that over the last few years i have noticed more than 50% will either break in the score up or gallop out why? battling trainers with favorites i reckon put in 100% effort as winning to them is money in the bank. Hi profile drivers i have noticed are the ones whose horses tend to be the culprits, if you don't believe me go back and look at the results of odds-on favorite races, also from now on monitor how many more will do it.
Again i want to know why this happens??
As for the minimum sectional times are apparently already in place at most tracks, some drivers are getting away with 64-66 1st half miles and are fined a paltry $100-$200 but that does not help the punter, on most occasions these days drivers tend to sit back and allow the leader to dictate in front, myself and i guess most punters would like to see truly run races like the Miracle Mile where as I'mthemightyquinns driver served it up to Smoken Up and Lance Justice came back off the fence and took the lead again instead of sitting behind him which set the precedent off a good race with good sectional times. That's what i call a race, any other race where they are all in their positions until the last 400-600metres before doing anything is boring.

[aussiebreno]

Hi Greg thanks for responding to my quip. When i say that favorites don't put in i mean that over the last few years i have noticed more than 50% will either break in the score up or gallop out why? battling trainers with favorites i reckon put in 100% effort as winning to them is money in the bank. Hi profile drivers i have noticed are the ones whose horses tend to be the culprits, if you don't believe me go back and look at the results of odds-on favorite races, also from now on monitor how many more will do it.
Again i want to know why this happens??
As for the minimum sectional times are apparently already in place at most tracks, some drivers are getting away with 64-66 1st half miles and are fined a paltry $100-$200 but that does not help the punter, on most occasions these days drivers tend to sit back and allow the leader to dictate in front, myself and i guess most punters would like to see truly run races like the Miracle Mile where as I'mthemightyquinns driver served it up to Smoken Up and Lance Justice came back off the fence and took the lead again instead of sitting behind him which set the precedent off a good race with good sectional times. That's what i call a race, any other race where they are all in their positions until the last 400-600metres before doing anything is boring.
Oh dear at the bolded part. If its true go on betfair and lay them...oh wait its not true.
The $100-$200 fine shouldnt be there in the first place. Why is it anyone's perogative to run a certain time to appease someone else. Count yourself lucky the rule is there at the moment.
If you don't like it, can't back a winner and find it boring then go away.

[A BIT DUSTY]

Sectional times are the greatest joke in harness racing . How they got away with introducing this rule is testament to how stupid the rule makers in this sport are. Can someone tell me any
other sport in the world were the leader of the race has to run a certain speed and then if they don't the rulers fine or suspend them, Surely tactics are a part of any competition. You wouldn't see it at the gallops, you don't see it Bike racing ,athletics ,swimming or any other sport .If a driver was driving one of mine and he drove it one stride faster than he had to in order to win he would never get on any more of my horses .What the poor old horse with limited ability that get's a cheap lead and with a couple of steady quarters he get's home and earns a reprieve from the nackery not to mention getting a few bob back for his long suffering owners. Oh no his suppose to go flat chat and let some other bugger that has done nothing in the race come off his hard work and get the dough. Get back to good old competitive racing were drivers use their brain.

[Mark Croatto]

Hi there, just reading all the information that TripleV123 has written over the last 3 mths.

You could be a steward Triple, but Im sure you drink milk out of a saucer. I think your a big cat.
Jamie why don't you apply for a trainers licence.
Jamie why don't you apply for a drivers licence.
You have NO ability with horses.
Just stick to pouring beers Jamie

Get your facts right numb nut, Jaimie doesn't pour beers

http://critteristic.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/beer-cat.jpg

:-)

[Thevoiceofreason]

Sectional times are the greatest joke in harness racing . How they got away with introducing this rule is testament to how stupid the rule makers in this sport are. Can someone tell me any
other sport in the world were the leader of the race has to run a certain speed and then if they don't the rulers fine or suspend them, Surely tactics are a part of any competition. You wouldn't see it at the gallops, you don't see it Bike racing ,athletics ,swimming or any other sport .If a driver was driving one of mine and he drove it one stride faster than he had to in order to win he would never get on any more of my horses .What the poor old horse with limited ability that get's a cheap lead and with a couple of steady quarters he get's home and earns a reprieve from the nackery not to mention getting a few bob back for his long suffering owners. Oh no his suppose to go flat chat and let some other bugger that has done nothing in the race come off his hard work and get the dough. Get back to good old competitive racing were drivers use their brain.

Gee Dennis

You are getting revved up there mate.

By the way I agree with you but this is not a new thing in Harness Racing I recall in the early 70"s yes 40years ago the then controlling body which was Harold Park wanted to half prize money in races that were not run quickly enough.

Do not get me wrong I actually agree with you I am just saying the issue it has been around for a long time , long before the current rules were put in place.

[barney]

Oh dear at the bolded part. If its true go on betfair and lay them...oh wait its not true.
y.
Betfair i think is also apart of the problem.To be able to back a horse to lose SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED in any case.It opens in my opinion everything up to corruption.

[Greg Hando]

Gee Dennis

You are getting revved up there mate.

By the way I agree with you but this is not a new thing in Harness Racing I recall in the early 70"s yes 40years ago the then controlling body which was Harold Park wanted to half prize money in races that were not run quickly enough.

Do not get me wrong I actually agree with you I am just saying the issue it has been around for a long time , long before the current rules were put in place.

That's right Bill Dad was telling me about that a few week's ago.My feeling is if you win in a slow time good luck to you as no-one else has the balls to take you on they don't deserve to win . We won a race at Blayney at their carnival of cup's meeting and led and ran 2.10 i was so embarissed (spelling excuse me ) not that we won the race and had a good collect from tote and bookmaker's but on the time we ran and were allowed to do it by the other driver's in the race surely they must have more confidence in their horses than this or just can't judge speed even a squib can run a quick last quarter if allowed to do nothing early so if the driver does his homework he should know what everyone in the race is capable of and drive accordingly and the best thing about the win was getting a picture with all the kid's and grand kid's in it with me as is the first time we've all been their for a horse's win together .

[Thevoiceofreason]

Betfair i think is also apart of the problem.To be able to back a horse to lose SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED in any case.It opens in my opinion everything up to corruption.

Brian

Betfair has been branded in this way by many. The truth is nothing has changed in the 1970's horses were layed to lose by bookmakers on every racetrack in a Australia some bookmakers layed horses on behalf of other people no different.

The difference with Betfair is because of technology they can and do provide the authorities with full information on who layed horses and for how much and to who. If you check you will find many investigations in Harness racing are able to be carried out more thoroughly because of information gained from Betfair>

I am sure they have provided lots of information on the current scandal.

[Greg Hando]

With 50 % of favourite's galloping out or breaking in the score up watch the trot's not the gallops as you must see different races to me 50% is way far fetched of the 5 meeting's held yesterday Aust wide 2 favourites bsu or galloped out, along way from 50% .

[aussiebreno]

Betfair i think is also apart of the problem.To be able to back a horse to lose SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED in any case.It opens in my opinion everything up to corruption.
Although it requires more effort its not much different to backing every other horse in the race.

[Starship Captain]

If this Thread get's 20,000 views I will post whilst naked:)
hang on........ I already am.

[2minuteman]

Hi there, just reading all the information that TripleV123 has written over the last 3 mths.

You could be a steward Triple, but Im sure you drink milk out of a saucer. I think your a big cat.
Jamie why don't you apply for a trainers licence.
Jamie why don't you apply for a drivers licence.
You have NO ability with horses.
Just stick to pouring beers Jamie
This sound familiar to anyone else?

[2minuteman]

Hi profile drivers i have noticed are the ones whose horses tend to be the culprits, if you don't believe me go back and look at the results of odds-on favorite races, also from now on monitor how many more will do it.
Again i want to know why this happens??
For exactly the same reason favourites miss the start at the TBreds,particularly in Qld.

[2minuteman]

Can someone tell me any
other sport in the world were the leader of the race has to run a certain speed?
Boat races?

[Danno]

This sound familiar to anyone else?

Ringman In disguise???

[Greg Hando]

Danno you occupation has me bemused with the title what is a lubricant's advisor ?

[David Summers]

Ringman In disguise???

No Dan, 2minuteman is definitely not the dubious "ringman". Ringman can't spell , can't put sentences together that make any sense , can never post without telling you what a legendary punter he is and has never heard of using capital letters. Also he is an idiot!

Ron (2minuteman) , does not have any of these traits.

[2minuteman]

Ringman In disguise???

Bloody hell,I really feel miffed now.What on earth did I say that brought that on?

[aussiebreno]

No Dan, 2minuteman is definitely not the dubious "ringman". Ringman can't spell , can't put sentences together that make any sense , can never post without telling you what a legendary punter he is and has never heard of using capital letters. Also he is an idiot!

Ron (2minuteman) , does not have any of these traits.
That really is a nice story but I think Danno wasn't suggesting 2minuteman is ringman rather that Alex is ringman....I actually thought it was Buster but buster could be ringman!


Bloody hell,I really feel miffed now.What on earth did I say that brought that on?
He was answering you question on Alex123 where you asked if Alex123 sounds familiar to anyone else. Thats what I thought anwyay...

[2minuteman]

I wasn't cranky, only bemused.

[triplev123]

So much for the real names policy. The Keyboard Warriors are obviously back in force. Jules, Flashing...over to you.

[David Summers]

Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick too. I just speed read through the posts and sometimes I misread what is being said and by whom.

Anyway Danno , also interested in what a lubricants advisor is.

[Mark Croatto]

So much for the real names policy. The Keyboard Warriors are obviously back in force. Jules, Flashing...over to you.

Come on Jaimie, surely my reply was worthy of at least a wry smile :p

Regards

Mark

[PD13]

Some of these posts are nowhere near topic. Try starting another one called 'Romper Room' and have your niggles there. Thanks in advance........... I hope.

Over 19,000 views and only 157 posts, a good percentage only drivle and bitching. I'm sure Sam and the Taskforce check out these comments looking to see what suspicions others have so don't waste their time and give them something to work with or some juicy stuff for us to read.

[David Summers]

a good percentage only drivle and bitching.

And your post has just added to that percentage. If you don't like what you read , then kindly get lost.

[Tangles]

This whole affair leaves any harness racing participant apalled and disgusted. This being able to go for as long as it did proves greater judicial involvement in vetting participants and stewards is necessary. Let the necessary proceedings take place and may their name never appear on race form in the future.

[triplev123]

This whole affair leaves any harness racing participant apalled and disgusted. This being able to go for as long as it did proves greater judicial involvement in vetting participants and stewards is necessary. Let the necessary proceedings take place and may their name never appear on race form in the future.

[VVV] I have long believed that all Licences should exist 'at the pleasure of the Board' so to speak and to support that we should have a Code of Conduct in place.
You would sign for/take out/renew a Licence under those terms and with the clear understanding that should you choose to take a walk on the wildside...it can be revoked at any time & no subsequent discussions will be entered into. Federal & State Police background checks would be a good addition to this. No wiggle room. None of this I didn't know routine. No bullshit. End of section.

[Greg Hando]

Their is a code of practice in this year i believe it had to be signed and sent back with the license renewal so i was told.

[PD13]

And your post has just added to that percentage. If you don't like what you read , then kindly get lost.

See you in Romper Room

[triplev123]

Come on Jaimie, surely my reply was worthy of at least a wry smile :p

Regards

Mark

[VVV] You know I don't like Cats. :rolleyes:

[2minuteman]

No Dan, 2minuteman is definitely not the dubious "ringman". Ringman can't spell , can't put sentences together that make any sense , can never post without telling you what a legendary punter he is and has never heard of using capital letters. Also he is an idiot!

Ron (2minuteman) , does not have any of these traits.
Thank you for the kind words David.

[Thevoiceofreason]

[VVV] I have long believed that all Licences should exist 'at the pleasure of the Board' so to speak and to support that we should have a Code of Conduct in place.
You would sign for/take out/renew a Licence under those terms and with the clear understanding that should you choose to take a walk on the wildside...it can be revoked at any time & no subsequent discussions will be entered into. Federal & State Police background checks would be a good addition to this. No wiggle room. None of this I didn't know routine. No bullshit. End of section.

Jamie the days you speak of are long gone back in the good old days if you applied for a licence and the ruling authority did not want to give it to you or not not renew it so be it.

Gai Waterhouse changed that when she took the AJC as it was then on, when they would not licence her because she lived with Robbie, so those days are over.

I pretty sure you can not get even a strappers licence in either code in NSW without a criminal record check at least with the NSW police, you can check it out when you head to Meredith street to watch the movie I recommended.

[racefair]

This whole affair leaves any harness racing participant apalled and disgusted. This being able to go for as long as it did proves greater judicial involvement in vetting participants and stewards is necessary. Let the necessary proceedings take place and may their name never appear on race form in the future.

CONTROLS
Hi Tangles, you make some good points. I have a few questions around controls. Where were they? Why did so many people in HRNSW know which horses were going to get swabbed beforehand? Why did O'Tool and Bentley need to know? Why didn't the HRNSW randomly change the swabbing schedule at the last moment to catch out this type of corruption? The system was so predictable and therefore rorted. Yes it is easy to say in hindsight, however there were rumors about this activity beforehand and one easy way to act on them would have been to mix up the schedule at the last moment.

[Danno]

This sound familiar to anyone else?

Gents...please! My sincere apologies to you 2minuteman, my response was about Ron's question about the post put up by Alex123


http://www.harnessracingforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by alex 123 http://www.harnessracingforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?p=13520#post13520)
Hi there, just reading all the information that TripleV123 has written over the last 3 mths.

You could be a steward Triple, but Im sure you drink milk out of a saucer. I think your a big cat.
Jamie why don't you apply for a trainers licence.
Jamie why don't you apply for a drivers licence.
You have NO ability with horses.
Just stick to pouring beers Jamie

I thought that sounded a bit like Ringman having a go at Jamie! and Ron was too!

My apologies if Ive offended you Ron that was definitley not the intention.

Cheers,

Dan

[Danno]

Danno you occupation has me bemused with the title what is a lubricant's advisor ?

Thanks for the thought Greg, s'pose I was looking for that coming at some stage and so just to clear the air.....none of the things one thinks of when ones mind is in the gutter. It's a product support role with the world's market leader in lubricants for mining, industry and transport.

Kind a job you don't get rusty at!

I think I'll delete that detail from the profile it's bound to cause me angst again isn't it?

Cheers,

Dan

[Thevoiceofreason]

CONTROLS
Hi Tangles, you make some good points. I have a few questions around controls. Where were they? Why did so many people in HRNSW know which horses were going to get swabbed beforehand? Why did O'Tool and Bentley need to know? Why didn't the HRNSW randomly change the swabbing schedule at the last moment to catch out this type of corruption? The system was so predictable and therefore rorted. Yes it is easy to say in hindsight, however there were rumors about this activity beforehand and one easy way to act on them would have been to mix up the schedule at the last moment.

The reason Paul O'Toole had to know was that as starter he is the one to clear horses to pre race warm up, if a horse is to pre race blood tested it can not warm up first as it renders the swab useless.

Looking at the meetings already listed I think you will find they were meetings where one of the two stewards either Bentley or O'Toole were in charge.

The only way would have been to not have them make the decisions on which horses to swab, if HRNSW knew enough to do that well they would not have been working at all.

As soon as HRNSW had any thing like proof the acted put the allegations to the accused and they resigned.

I have done some ruff calculations to show why it was not that easy to identify any pattern of horses not swabbed from raw data.

As I understand it the swab selection process in NSW at the time allowed the chief steward at the meeting to select 3 winners from 8 races to be post race tested (not considering HP or now Menangle where each winner is swabbed) this leaves approximately 50 winners a week untested in NSW, at 4.5 weeks a month, on average this is 225 winners a month not swabbed.

I do not think in those circumstances missing one post race a month would be hard to hide from your superiors.

Now lets examine TCO2 testing say an average of 70 runners per meeting (again discount HP or Menangle where more are tested up to 25% of the runners) TCO2 testing was conducted at about 70% of meetings at about 6 runners a meeting so it is then only 36 runners a week tested from 700 runners if you do the maths that is 3150 runners a month again not difficult to hide the missing of one, two or even three bloods a month in these circumstances.

I am not sure how anyone could identify a pattern emerging , there are just too many variables.

I am told it was part of the plan to also to test other stable runners who were not "helped" so again no pattern emerged because it looked like the Trainer was being tested all the time.

At most meetings in NSW there are only two stewards one has to make the decisions which horses to swab weather it be pre or post race.

We should also remember there have been in NSW over the past few years a number of Trainers disqualified for TCO2 positives after post race two hour blood tests were ordered by vigilant stewards who smelt a rat on the night or day as it may be, ironically one of the Trainers to be disqualified in those circumstances has already been charged in this investigation.

Its needle in haystack stuff without the whistle blower that led to the phone use and money trail.

[David Summers]

Danno , it's probably best to leave your occupation blank. Some others on the forums post their occupation as a "joke" occupation ( I've got no problems with that - good for a laugh) but I think it might be best to remove it in your case.

[2minuteman]

[QUOTE=Danno;13611]Gents...please! My sincere apologies to you 2minuteman, my response was about Ron's question about the post put up by Alex123
No, I wasn't offended but you were on the money re Ringman having a go under a new nom-de-forum.

[strong persuader]

[VVV] I have long believed that all Licences should exist 'at the pleasure of the Board' so to speak and to support that we should have a Code of Conduct in place.
You would sign for/take out/renew a Licence under those terms and with the clear understanding that should you choose to take a walk on the wildside...it can be revoked at any time & no subsequent discussions will be entered into. Federal & State Police background checks would be a good addition to this. No wiggle room. None of this I didn't know routine. No bullshit. End of section.
Just as in that other contentious issue, relegation, the rules already exist;

90. (1) The Controlling Body may by licence regulate any activity connected with the harness racing industry.
(2) An application for a licence shall be made by the persons in the manner and form and be accompanied by such documentation, information and fees as the Controlling Body may determine.
(3) A person applying to be relicensed with a Controlling Body shall, if previously licensed by another Controlling Body or recognised harness racing authority, provide a written clearance from that Controlling Body or recognised harness racing authority detailing the status of the person relating to current penalty, debt or other embargo.
(4) The Controlling Body may grant a licence for such period and upon such terms and conditions as it thinks fit.
(5)An application for a licence may be refused by the Controlling Body without assigning any reason.
(6) A licence may be suspended or cancelled:
(a) by the Controlling Body or the Stewards for breach of a term or condition of the licence, or
(b) by the Controlling Body where the Controlling Body is satisfied that the person holding the licence is not a fit and proper person to be associated with harness racing.
(7)The type, grade or class of a licence held by a person may be varied by the Controlling Body or by the Stewards.
(8) The terms or conditions attaching to a type, grade or class of licence may be varied by the Stewards or theControlling Body.

So it is just a matter of applying the rules and letting those that fall foul of them fight them in court if they so choose. I'm sure that most would baulk at the legal expense involved in that pursuit.

[triplev123]

That's true Phil but as super wanky as it sounds, from a Law Talkin' Guy perspective having the racing rules written as such differs greatly to someone signing a Licence application/agreement with full awareness/understanding & by way of a signanture an acceptance of the conditions therein that clearly stipulate the same.

[Daryl New]

Jaimie
from memory, keep in mind I am getting old, we did sign such a document this year before licences were issued.

[Thevoiceofreason]

That's true Phil but as super wanky as it sounds, from a Law Talkin' Guy perspective having the racing rules written as such differs greatly to someone signing a Licence application/agreement with full awareness/understanding & by way of a signanture an acceptance of the conditions therein that clearly stipulate the same.

And for the record most licence forms include a clause that you agree to bound by the rules. Its like everything it can and will be appealed.

[Daryl New]

You been talking to my wife

[David Summers]

Words of support from Harness Racing NZ for investigators currently handling the NSW harness scandal http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=94245

[David Summers]

Also, Sam Nati has just made the following statement about the current investigation http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=94247

[Thevoiceofreason]

Congratulations to the moderators of this forum for so quickly removing the rubbish posted under the name of CEdwards81, where as is his usual rant he states rumors and his opinions as if the are fact and has pot shots at the establishment as they try to clean up the game.

At the risk of upsetting the moderators I have reposted a small section of what he had to say

"Good on the NSW Police for moving ahead and showing harness racing how to run an investigation"

Gee scoop thanks for the information, who would have possibly thought a police force of nearly 16000 officers were better equipped to run an investigation than HRNSW... what a goose.

[David Summers]

Not sure if Admin were online , but I reported the outrageous post a couple of minutes after it was posted and it was quickly removed. Thank you Admin for your quick work.

Chris Edwards , now that you are on an enforced holiday from these forums (hopefully permanent) , time for you to wake up to yourself and stop posting libellous crap.

[The Rainmaker]

I have a couple of questions for those in the know:

1. The Daily Telegraph named 37 races under Police investigation stemming from the charges laid against Paul O'Toole. There are trainers and drivers who participated in those races and no charges have been laid against them as yet. If there is not enough evidence to charge these people, then why cant HRNSW stand these people down under Australian Harness Racing Rule 183, which states a trainer or driver may be directed not take part in a race "pending the outcome of an inquiry, investigation or objection, or where a person has been charged with an offence". There is obviously an inquiry and investigation into the races listed that those people participated in. So for the time being they can continue to compete in and win races as recently as last night, while others involved can still take the reins at Penrith tonight as well as at the Group 1 Truer Memorial meeting at Bankstown on Saturday.

2. Where is one M. Bentley in all of this? Paul O'Toole is copping all the heat thus far and this was not the man flashing his new found wealth around Sydney by wearing fancy suits and blowing stacks of cash at Star City Casino night in night out.

[triplev123]

Not sure if Admin were online , but I reported the outrageous post a couple of minutes after it was posted and it was quickly removed. Thank you Admin for your quick work.

Chris Edwards , now that you are on an enforced holiday from these forums (hopefully permanent) , time for you to wake up to yourself and stop posting libellous crap.

[VVV] Amen to that.

[Diesel]

I have a couple of questions for those in the know:

1. The Daily Telegraph named 37 races under Police investigation stemming from the charges laid against Paul O'Toole. There are trainers and drivers who participated in those races and no charges have been laid against them as yet. If there is not enough evidence to charge these people, then why cant HRNSW stand these people down under Australian Harness Racing Rule 183, which states a trainer or driver may be directed not take part in a race "pending the outcome of an inquiry, investigation or objection, or where a person has been charged with an offence". There is obviously an inquiry and investigation into the races listed that those people participated in. So for the time being they can continue to compete in and win races as recently as last night, while others involved can still take the reins at Penrith tonight as well as at the Group 1 Truer Memorial meeting at Bankstown on Saturday.

2. Where is one M. Bentley in all of this? Paul O'Toole is copping all the heat thus far and this was not the man flashing his new found wealth around Sydney by wearing fancy suits and blowing stacks of cash at Star City Casino night in night out.

O'Toole has "assisted" and given his list of races that were fixed. Although his list is well short of how many were HOT.
Bentley has not been so forthcoming with information so the Taskforce has to track these down.
To date those arrested have really only been fringe players as the Industry and its participants are crying out for action so these people have been named and arrested with enough evidence.
The "others" still racing particularly tonight are dreading every knock at the door....cos its coming.
Its only a matter of time but if these people are going to punished to be the full extent of the law they need to get all the relevant data to seal the deal. Betting activity has been very difficult to link with some of these clowns.
The phone calls are for all to see cos they thought it was safe on mobiles. I am aware of only one that used a prepaid mobile but even that wont help him.

I think everyone is aware of the ones still out there now with the exception of a couple of real surprises.....
If regularly on-course one can see the change in their demeanour and cockiness......Pleasant to view.
Cant wait til the day they are arrested as I for one will be letting them know exactly how I feel.

[David Summers]

You might think that some of those racing tonight ( not just tonight) might be looking over their shoulders. No they are not looking to see what is coming to challenge , they are waiting for the inevitable tap on the shoulder that will lead to the end their corrupt careers.

Good riddance!! This lot who were so arrogant in the past and looked at the honest participants with utter contempt and spent a lot of time laughing behind their backs , can now not look anyone in the eyes and spend most of their time looking at the ground. You're gone you grubs.

[triplev123]

G'day David,

I think the absolute contempt they've shown for their fellow participants is the very worst of it.
A slew of honest, hard working owners, trainers, drivers & punters who ask for nothing more & expect nothing less than a fair go have been extensively & repeatedly done over & that is deplorable. That is unforgivable. That is un-Australian.

[Greg Hando]

Thanks for the thought Greg, s'pose I was looking for that coming at some stage and so just to clear the air.....none of the things one thinks of when ones mind is in the gutter. It's a product support role with the world's market leader in lubricants for mining, industry and transport.

Kind a job you don't get rusty at!

I think I'll delete that detail from the profile it's bound to cause me angst again isn't it?

Cheers,

Dan

No mind not in the gutter just didn't know what it was as many occupation's have name changes to make them sound more appealing i thought it must have been a new name for a driveway attendant ha ha

[David Summers]

I've not been able to get out to Menangle too often , but in the past what I have seen clearly is the sheer arrogance and utter contempt shown by some of these corrupt stables to other genuine participants , trying to earn an honest buck , became so very obvious. Thank you to the whistleblower who got this investigation started.

Feeling volatile right now , but will keep my mouth closed ( for now) , but may these scum if found guilty rot in hell. How dare they do this to our beloved industry! Life bans if found guilty , there is no other option. May we never see these grubs names appear again.

[sharkie]

having spoken to 1 of the 5 already arrested they are quiet confident of having charges dropped, beause there defence is "if my horse's were doped and the green light was given, well show me the results of the swabs......thats right there are no swabs so therefore all you have is zippo".......thats what he said to me.

[Greg Hando]

Eric NRNSW got the names from the police on tuesday ? and have to run their own hearing so as to be acting inside the rules you have to be able to prove an offence was committed i think it will take a bit of time for Mr Murrihy (excuse the spelling )and the other 2 to go through the evidence thoroughly and that is good we don't want these fleas getting off due to shoddy procedure or hearsay.The way i see it it is the word of 1 man saying which horse's and or trainer's etc involved so a case has to be proven it is only hear say at the moment about some of them.

[Greg Hando]

having spoken to 1 of the 5 already arrested they are quiet confident of having charges dropped, beause there defence is "if my horse's were doped and the green light was given, well show me the results of the swabs......thats right there are no swabs so therefore all you have is zippo".......thats what he said to me.

They migh thave forgot about the "gaining money by deception " or whatever the wording is perhaps.

[Howard]

Everyone keeps coming up with the same names to get a visit but the whistleblower doesnt get a visit....just a smack on the wrist at the conclusion

The big fish the police are after arent trainers or drivers. One is a former owner currrently on the HRA NSW suspension list and the other is a well known big fat punter.If i were them id be visiting the Skase family in Spain till the heat dies down a little

[sharkie]

They migh thave forgot about the "gaining money by deception " or whatever the wording is perhaps.

Greg, he is of the opinion that with out any evidence relating to the swabs nothing will stick, im not on his side i hope all the time in harness racing is over but thats what he is telling me...

[A BIT DUSTY]

I don't think they have been charged with doping , so the no swab defence would be not worth a pinch of sh-t . From what I have read they have been charged with making payments to induce corruption , If there is proof ( and it sure sounds as if there is ) that money has been paid for advanced knowledge, what they did after that is irrelevant.

[Dmoore]

Hi fellow posters...... I have been following the trots scandal for a while now but found it hard to sort out the facts from fiction! How many races were actually involved in the scandal and how many trainers/drivers are going to be charged? Also how could such corruption be allowed to exist without the bosses at harness racing keeping check on their staff??

[Thevoiceofreason]

Hi fellow posters...... I have been following the trots scandal for a while now but found it hard to sort out the facts from fiction! How many races were actually involved in the scandal and how many trainers/drivers are going to be charged? Also how could such corruption be allowed to exist without the bosses at harness racing keeping check on their staff??

This was posted earlier but it puts it into perspective.

The reason Paul O'Toole had to know was that as starter he is the one to clear horses to pre race warm up, if a horse is to pre race blood tested it can not warm up first as it renders the swab useless.

Looking at the meetings already listed I think you will find they were meetings where one of the two stewards either Bentley or O'Toole were in charge.

The only way would have been to not have them make the decisions on which horses to swab, if HRNSW knew enough to do that well they would not have been working at all.

As soon as HRNSW had any thing like proof the acted put the allegations to the accused and they resigned.

I have done some ruff calculations to show why it was not that easy to identify any pattern of horses not swabbed from raw data.

As I understand it the swab selection process in NSW at the time allowed the chief steward at the meeting to select 3 winners from 8 races to be post race tested (not considering HP or now Menangle where each winner is swabbed) this leaves approximately 50 winners a week untested in NSW, at 4.5 weeks a month, on average this is 225 winners a month not swabbed.

I do not think in those circumstances missing one post race a month would be hard to hide from your superiors.

Now lets examine TCO2 testing say an average of 70 runners per meeting (again discount HP or Menangle where more are tested up to 25% of the runners) TCO2 testing was conducted at about 70% of meetings at about 6 runners a meeting so it is then only 36 runners a week tested from 700 runners if you do the maths that is 3150 runners a month again not difficult to hide the missing of one, two or even three bloods a month in these circumstances.

I am not sure how anyone could identify a pattern emerging , there are just too many variables.

I am told it was part of the plan to also to test other stable runners who were not "helped" so again no pattern emerged because it looked like the Trainer was being tested all the time.

At most meetings in NSW there are only two stewards one has to make the decisions which horses to swab weather it be pre or post race.

We should also remember there have been in NSW over the past few years a number of Trainers disqualified for TCO2 positives after post race two hour blood tests were ordered by vigilant stewards who smelt a rat on the night or day as it may be, ironically one of the Trainers to be disqualified in those circumstances has already been charged in this investigation.

Its needle in haystack stuff without the whistle blower that led to the phone use and money trail.

[Dmoore]

That explains a lot. What about the whistleblower? Is he an innocent party or one of those to be arrested??

[Thevoiceofreason]

That explains a lot. What about the whistleblower? Is he an innocent party or one of those to be arrested??

Sorry I am not close enough to offer an opinion with any validity and I hate guessing, glad it cleared up how it could have happened tho.

[Macarthur]

Bill, you seem to have an opinion or defence for the people you work for or did work for on everything said in this forum, maybe you could offer some advice on improving the current swabbing procedures

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill, you seem to have an opinion or defence for the people you work for or did work for on everything said in this forum, maybe you could offer some advice on improving the current swabbing procedures

I think that is an easy question to answer.

There is no doubt in my opinion that the best model is the current model operated by RacingNSW where every winner is swabbed, in Harness this could be confined to meetings covered by the TAB. In this instance I am talking post race swabbing only.

In relation to TCO2 testing which is a bigger issue for harness than the gallops, the current 25% of runners that are done at the Metro standard meetings could be rolled out to all provincial standard meetings.

I am aware this would constitute a considerable extension to the current cost structure.

The best alternative would seem to be one outlined in other forum posts by VVV where another machine be purchased and used to check TCO2 levels in bloods, it is clear this machine is not supported under the rules to declare a positive test, however it could be used to highlight high TCO2 findings that then require further testing with the approved equipment.The deterrent effect of this would be immeasurable because at many meetings every runner could be tested.

This approach would also clearly lessen the cost burden.

Whilst ever the situation exists that every winner is not post race tested and such a small percentage of runners are TCO2 tested it is too easy for cheats to sneak through, this is not in any way meant to suggest HRNSW should have done a better job. they have a limited budget and swabbing is an expensive exercise but if public confidence is to be returned and maintained then a very different approach needs to be taken and as stupid as it sounds regardless of the costs.

If Harness Racing loses public confidence long term, then turnover drops, which in turn leads to lesser payments from the TABCORP agreement which will lead to a drop in prize money and a shrinking industry.

I am positive I know the answer, but I am not sure how to fund it, it would be great if we lived in Utopia but we do not, we live in NSW.

[Dmoore]

Bill you know more about this topic than hrnsw and the stewards by the sounds of it! Did you ever consider becoming a steward and what is your background in the sport??

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill you know more about this topic than hrnsw and the stewards by the sounds of it! Did you ever consider becoming a steward and what is your background in the sport??

I have long held an interest in the regulatory control of sport, more Rugby League, Harness and the Gallops which are my interests, in recent years with the increased role of the net in relation to the easy access of stewards reports ect this interest has intensified.

I liked this article the other day by Ken Callander I think it sums things up pretty well on how difficult a stewards role now is an you can be sure if anything it is harder in the trots in NSW because of a different appeals process... who would want the job



"A week or two ago a prominent owner became aware of the company his jockey was keeping and then thought back to some of the hoop's recent rides. As a result he asked his trainer to engage a different jockey in future and lo and behold the owner has had a bit of luck.

If it sounds as if I am saying all is not sweet and pure in the world of Sydney racing that is correct but please don't blame the stewards.

The worst aspect of racing in Australia in 2011 is the power of the stewards has been almost wiped out.

They cannot sustain a charge of not allowing a horse to run on its merits in any court in the country and their only means of justice is Australian Rule Of Racing 135 (b) which deals with a jockey giving a horse every opportunity to win.
Apprentices take Sydney by storm
Pinker, Caviar set for clash

Unfortunately, when they charge a jockey under this rule, the appeals tribunals throughout the country totally ignore the expert opinion of stewards, who spend their entire working life in racing, and rely on legal points or the opinions of the local butcher, baker or backyard lawyer.

The rule, and the enforcement of it, is totally reliant on opinion and nothing else and yet lawyers with absolutely no racing knowledge continually reject the opinion of the stewards.

The new board of Racing NSW (hopefully in conjunction with Racing Victoria) should make the support of stewards and the total overhaul of the appeals system its No.1 priority.Punters are the lifeblood of racing and they must be protected. At the moment they are not.
***

[aussiebreno]

[QUOTE=Thevoiceofreason;13931]

"A week or two ago a prominent owner became aware of the company his jockey was keeping and then thought back to some of the hoop's recent rides. As a result he asked his trainer to engage a different jockey in future and lo and behold the owner has had a bit of luck.


QUOTE]
Jumping to conclusions? When that jockey became aware of such accusations he marched straight to the stewards to declare his innocence and to provide any evidence needed.

[Thevoiceofreason]

[QUOTE=Thevoiceofreason;13931]

"A week or two ago a prominent owner became aware of the company his jockey was keeping and then thought back to some of the hoop's recent rides. As a result he asked his trainer to engage a different jockey in future and lo and behold the owner has had a bit of luck.


QUOTE]
Jumping to conclusions? When that jockey became aware of such accusations he marched straight to the stewards to declare his innocence and to provide any evidence needed.

Yes he did and if you are innocent it is a very smart play, why not put the issue to bed.

[triplev123]

http://www.oceangardens.com.mo/English/OG/Misc/MacauJockeyClub.jpg

[The Rainmaker]

Paul O'Toole is due to front court tomorrow. Will be interesting to see if any more news comes out after his court appearance. There was a small piece in todays Daily Telegraph stating Reid Sanders has been busy over the last week interviewing participants in regional NSW. You can bet your bottom dollar he had a stay over in Bathurst. Hopefully we will find out some more soon.

[Dmoore]

Do you think Harness Racing will look to charge people that havent been charged by the police? and if so, will they be able to hold them at appeal unlike the Ruggari and Jackson fiasco's of a few years back?

[Greg Hando]

This might answer your question Doug
Corruption and related matters

240. A person shall not, whether alone or in association with others, do, permit or suffer anything before, during or after a race which in the opinion of the Stewards or Controlling Body may cause someone to be unlawfully advantaged or disadvantaged or be penalised or corrupt or otherwise improper.

241. A person shall not in connection with any part of the harness racing industry do anything which is fraudulent or corrupt.

242. A person shall not furnish the Controlling Body with a document purporting to describe the ownership of a horse which is false or fails to mention a person with ownership rights or interests.

243. A person employed, engaged or participating in the harness racing industry shall not behave in a way which is prejudicial or detrimental to the industry.

244. A person whether alone or in association with others shall not communicate improperly with the Controlling Body, its members or employees about anything which is or is likely to be the subject of an inquiry by or appeal to the Controlling Body.

245. A person shall not direct, persuade, encourage or assist anyone to breach these rules or otherwise engage in an improper practice.

246. A person who has reasonable grounds for believing that someone is behaving, may behave or has behaved in a way causing, likely to cause or which has caused a breach of these rules shall promptly bring the matter to the notice of the Controlling Body or the Stewards.

247. A person attending before the Controlling Body its members or employees, the Stewards, officials, or at any proceeding under these rules, shall not speak or behave in a malicious, intimidatory or otherwise improper manner.
Corruption and related matters

Hope it helps

[Thevoiceofreason]

Do you think Harness Racing will look to charge people that havent been charged by the police? and if so, will they be able to hold them at appeal unlike the Ruggari and Jackson fiasco's of a few years back?

I am sure HRNSW stewards will charge the people they feel they have proved have breached the rules.

If they lose at appeal so be it.

In the two cases you give as examples the stewards believed that those people had breached the rules and disqualified them accordingly on each occasion the stewards lost on appeal, hopefully if they charge people not charged by the police the charges will stick.

However if I am being honest unfortunately judges love a loophole, you only have to look at recent decisions in court cases surrounding the cowboys penalty goal plunge to see that.

[LEGENDAIREY]

I have long held an interest in the regulatory control of sport, more Rugby League, Harness and the Gallops which are my interests, in recent years with the increased role of the net in relation to the easy access of stewards reports ect this interest has intensified.

I liked this article the other day by Ken Callander I think it sums things up pretty well on how difficult a stewards role now is an you can be sure if anything it is harder in the trots in NSW because of a different appeals process... who would want the job



"A week or two ago a prominent owner became aware of the company his jockey was keeping and then thought back to some of the hoop's recent rides. As a result he asked his trainer to engage a different jockey in future and lo and behold the owner has had a bit of luck.

If it sounds as if I am saying all is not sweet and pure in the world of Sydney racing that is correct but please don't blame the stewards.

The worst aspect of racing in Australia in 2011 is the power of the stewards has been almost wiped out.

They cannot sustain a charge of not allowing a horse to run on its merits in any court in the country and their only means of justice is Australian Rule Of Racing 135 (b) which deals with a jockey giving a horse every opportunity to win.
Apprentices take Sydney by storm
Pinker, Caviar set for clash

Unfortunately, when they charge a jockey under this rule, the appeals tribunals throughout the country totally ignore the expert opinion of stewards, who spend their entire working life in racing, and rely on legal points or the opinions of the local butcher, baker or backyard lawyer.

The rule, and the enforcement of it, is totally reliant on opinion and nothing else and yet lawyers with absolutely no racing knowledge continually reject the opinion of the stewards.

The new board of Racing NSW (hopefully in conjunction with Racing Victoria) should make the support of stewards and the total overhaul of the appeals system its No.1 priority.Punters are the lifeblood of racing and they must be protected. At the moment they are not.
***
Hi, you are right Stewards should have the power no matter what, in that in there discretion that a driver does not look to be giving there horse every possible chance to win, barring an incident(flat Tyre, tailed off from being checked or breaking or galloping out) also i have said it many times to the C.E.O of HRNSW through Emails that form reversal needs to looked at as well, G. Hando said through this forum that horses have "off" days. But how can a horse that has been given every possible chance in running run last beaten over 50 metres comes out and wins it's next start??one example is Cold Native, just look at it's replay of when it was 1x1 dropped right out at the 400 metre mark then comes out it's next start to win easily???? There really is a lot of areas within the industry that need to be looked at before the punter is confident again that harness racing is worth placing their money on.

[triplev123]

I agree with the general thrust of that post Ron but with regard to the example you used (Cold Native) I think that's a fair way off the mark.

The field that horse beat on Tuesday with an on-the-pace/up in the breeze effort that went by in 1:56.5 (28.5-31.1-29.3-27.6) was not, IMO, of a comparitive quality to the majority of the field that he faced at his previous start at Menangle in Heat 2 of the Mt. Eden 4yo C'ship..where he was duly beaten in 1:54.9 (28.0-30.8-28.8-27.3).

His form in against C0-C1-C2-C3 horses has been very good this season until he ran into some of the better ones on Nov. 19th. He had a couple of weeks break, got back to his grade again on Tuesday and duly saluted. Nothing nefarious there, at least nothing that I can see.

[2minuteman]

Paul O'Toole is due to front court tomorrow. Will be interesting to see if any more news comes out after his court appearance. There was a small piece in todays Daily Telegraph stating Reid Sanders has been busy over the last week interviewing participants in regional NSW. You can bet your bottom dollar he had a stay over in Bathurst. Hopefully we will find out some more soon.
Did he meet with the Creature from the Black Lagoon?

[The Rainmaker]

Did he meet with the Creature from the Black Lagoon?

Quite likely I'd say.

Looks like Paul O'Toole faced court today and didn't enter a plea, his case has been adjourned until February. If no more charges are laid until after February and HRNSW don't step in and take some action and stand down some of those still competing before too long that'll do me.

[The Rainmaker]

Hi, you are right Stewards should have the power no matter what, in that in there discretion that a driver does not look to be giving there horse every possible chance to win, barring an incident(flat Tyre, tailed off from being checked or breaking or galloping out) also i have said it many times to the C.E.O of HRNSW through Emails that form reversal needs to looked at as well, G. Hando said through this forum that horses have "off" days. But how can a horse that has been given every possible chance in running run last beaten over 50 metres comes out and wins it's next start??one example is Cold Native, just look at it's replay of when it was 1x1 dropped right out at the 400 metre mark then comes out it's next start to win easily???? There really is a lot of areas within the industry that need to be looked at before the punter is confident again that harness racing is worth placing their money on.




Wrong on that example there Ron. If you look a little deeper you will notice Cold Native had a run 5 days prior to that poor performance you mentioned, in which he led and ran 2nd, beaten 3 metres in a time of 1.55.3. After the poor performance in the Mount Eden Heat, connections were quizzed by stewards and Sullivan blamed a relatively quick back up from a fast run 5 days prior and stewards stood the horse down for a trial on an unsatisfactory performance. After re-qualifiying and a freshen up he managed to win on Tuesday in a time of 1.56.5, one second slower than the time he registered 2 starts prior. I'm all for stewards looking into vastly improved performances, but only when they are warranted. If you did abit more homework on that particular horse you may have got a piece of the $6.30 on offer on Tuesday.

[Greg Hando]

Well said Rainmaker and 3 x v obviously his start before was an off day due to tiredness from backing up so soon after .

[David Summers]

Latest press release , issued an hour ago , possibly relating to matters in this thread http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=94508

[Messenger]

Sounds promising, it would seem they are going to be tough - you tell us a lie and we will charge you and suspend you until the hearing.

[sharkie]

Does any body what happened today , with the court appearance of M.Russo....

[Airds]

Bill you talk a load of crap, we all know you work at hrnsw !

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill you talk a load of crap, we all know you work at hrnsw !


John

That is just how stupid you are. I do not work at HRNSW and if I did they would sack me or at least they should for making some of the posts I do, however you consistency in being wrong is very impressive.

[Dmoore]

Funny you mention that Airds....."Bill" joined this forum and the betfair forum a week after one Michael Beattie um...resigned from hrnsw.....just a coincidence???

[Diesel]

Your right Doug. His posts are full of political crap.

Wouldnt be surprised if he is linked to those running or prev running the show.

[Dmoore]

For sure Diesel! He has been more on the defensive for hrnsw than Julia Gillard has for her carbon tax bs!

[Airds]

Diesel/Doug , totally agree definitely is connected to,worked at or working for hrnsw as he is so defensive and adamant on saying people are wrong. When the fake named mr bill Williams posts it is only to defend hrnsw and talk them up.

[Airds]

Bill should join the labour party and head up the carbon tax policy

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill should join the labour party and head up the carbon tax policy

Make no apologies for defending the manner in which HRNSW have handled this case and will continue to do so if I think they are doing a good job.

The best comparison to this is the Fine Cotton case in the gallops that was one race and it took a long time but everyone that was charged it stuck, some long periods of time. All I have said is be patient let them cross the T and dot the i.

The list on the sidelines will continue to grow and in the end we all want that.

As far as my reasons for joining this forum well you are entitled to your options, after all they are like arseholes, everybodys got one.

[Diesel]

The list on the sidelines will continue to grow and in the end we all want that.

Yes this is true and there are plenty more to come I can guarantee that.
I am still gobsmacked that Ben Sarina was allowed to compete for so long and not stood down earlier.
At the moment he has only been stood down for lying as was his Dad.
Its obvious this family has no respect for the Police or the people in charge.
I hope its permanent cos Harness Racing doesnt need this scum back.............

[Haichee]

I will walk to Burke backwards if Bill Williams isnt Michael Beattie

[tiny]

If it is Beattie he should be congratulated because he is the only person at HRNSW to have any dignity. He realized at the start that the worst corruption ever in Australian racing had accrued on his watch and resigned. Maybe a few more should follow his example and realize they have had there heads in the sand for so long in the past that they should not be a part of the future.

For harness racing to move on from this those that hear no evil see no evil and feel no evil IMO must go as well. To say they are doing a great job now is not good enough for two years at least they have been a failure

[Messenger]

If it is Beattie he should be congratulated because he is the only person at HRNSW to have any dignity. He realized at the start that the worst corruption ever in Australian racing had accrued on his watch and resigned. Maybe a few more should follow his example and realize they have had there heads in the sand for so long in the past that they should not be a part of the future.

For harness racing to move on from this those that hear no evil see no evil and feel no evil IMO must go as well. To say they are doing a great job now is not good enough for two years at least they have been a failure

I don't know that this is necessarily the best way to go. I do not know the administration of HRNSW at all but if there are good people amongst them they may be worth keeping as they would have learnt a lot from this and like anybody who has been stung once - you are super diligent to see that you never are again.

[Arnie]

I will walk to Burke backwards if Bill Williams isnt Michael Beattie

And I'll walk forward to make sure you don't turn around. I need the exercise.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Enjoy the walk boys but why stop at Burke keep going all the way to Perth and give us all a break.

[Arnie]

Enjoy the walk boys but why stop at Burke keep going all the way to Perth and give us all a break.

Now, come on, Mikey or is it William Williams. Your parents didn't give that one too much thought. I'm not skeptical. I don't care who you 'really' are. Makes for good reading and I do enjoy your mostly well written posts. But, Michael, when you're in Witness Protection, you're not supposed to bob your head up and give people clues. You must have a reasonably solid neck by now from looking over your shoulders so often. Good luck.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Now, come on, Mikey or is it William Williams. Your parents didn't give that one too much thought. I'm not skeptical. I don't care who you 'really' are. Makes for good reading and I do enjoy your mostly well written posts. But, Michael, when you're in Witness Protection, you're not supposed to bob your head up and give people clues. You must have a reasonably solid neck by now from looking over your shoulders so often. Good luck.

Its Bill not William, I was not aware Michael Beattie was. or is in witness protection, here is a pretty big clue for you, he is in Macau as their Chief Steward I checked their website he will be at the races there tonight and Sunday I imagine, if you need to find him, I doubt he is spending any time looking over his shoulders, I will however not offer any more posts on this issue it is bloody boring to everybody but mostly me.

[Airds]

Hrnsw must have a trade agreement with macau ! If and that's a if your not Beattie them hopefully you (bill)might end up in Macau as well.

[Airds]

Bill, the difference between the fine cotton case and the hrnsw scandal is the fine cotton was done professionally by a competent person and not cowboy style like the current scandal is . To compare the two is insulting ! The fine cotton case did not destroy the gallops industry, the current scandal and the way the investigation is been done is destroying the hrnsw industry for everyone including the people not involved in the scandal.

[Gtrain]

Bill, the difference between the fine cotton case and the hrnsw scandal is the fine cotton was done professionally by a competent person and not cowboy style like the current scandal is . To compare the two is insulting ! The fine cotton case did not destroy the gallops industry, the current scandal and the way the investigation is been done is destroying the hrnsw industry for everyone including the people not involved in the scandal.
This comment is laughable!! Fine Cotton was done professionally?? The paint came off. They did it once. They got caught. These guys had the stewards in their pocket. Way more professional in my terms of a rort. If these guys won the amounts of money being brandished about at the moment (which I find impossible considering the amount it is possible to win on one trots race in Australia) they were already leaps and bounds ahead of FC crew. This is because unlike FC they got an all clear. Many of them.
I did hear a quote about this situation from a gallops follower. He said "they race for 3k in some races right? And why are they suprised that they were all rotting the system. They get up at 6am work their horses longer and for 3k? Or 70% of it?". Pay peanuts get monkeys.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill, the difference between the fine cotton case and the hrnsw scandal is the fine cotton was done professionally by a competent person and not cowboy style like the current scandal is . To compare the two is insulting ! The fine cotton case did not destroy the gallops industry, the current scandal and the way the investigation is been done is destroying the hrnsw industry for everyone including the people not involved in the scandal.

I doubt you were even born when Fine Cotton happened so please do not lecture me on the pros and cons of comparing the two, what you would not know is the whole way the identification of Thoroughbred horses before they race was changed as a direct result of Fine Cotton to ensure it could never happen again.

The same will hopefully happen here.

[Dmoore]

I doubt you were even born when Fine Cotton happened so please do not lecture me on the pros and cons of comparing the two, what you would not know is the whole way the identification of Thoroughbred horses before they race was changed as a direct result of Fine Cotton to ensure it could never happen again.

The same will hopefully happen here.

Didnt NSW trots have their own case of Fine Cotton this year in the form of Uncle Lile......which a few of the stewards forgot to check only to discover it was the wrong horse that raced on two or so occasions......A very professional outift!

[strong persuader]

Didnt NSW trots have their own case of Fine Cotton this year in the form of Uncle Lile......which a few of the stewards forgot to check only to discover it was the wrong horse that raced on two or so occasions......A very professional outift!
Not quite correct there, it was an office mistake. Owners had submitted a name application for the wrong horse, registrar picked up the error and marked the papers for attention. Somehow the papers were then processed with the name and breeding accepted, though it was for the wrong horse. Later officials checking the freezebrand would have had the correct freezebrand to read for the horse registered as Uncle Lile.

[Danno]

strong persuader;14215]Not quite correct there, it was an office mistake. Owners had submitted a name application for the wrong horse, registrar picked up the error and marked the papers for attention. Somehow the papers were then processed with the name and breeding accepted, though it was for the wrong horse. Later officials checking the freezebrand would have had the correct freezebrand to read for the horse registered as Uncle Lile.[/QUOTE]

We had a similar incident in the early eighties, I had driven this 2YO to win at Maitland at his first start, the horse had his initial start inspection before the race, no worries.
The guy who owned, bred and trained the horse was over the moon and nominated him for HP the following week, a bus load of his family and friends went to the "smoke" to watch Ken's first HP starter.
The horse was inspected at HP and Ken is called in to front the stipes, under an allegation he had a "ring in".

Apparently the freeze brand on the horse didn't match his papers, and NSW stipes thought they had a crook in poor old Ken, who'd been in the game 5 minutes and had bred 2 foals in his initial foray into the game. Both the colts were by Bold Jason and the freeze brand on the horse we fronted up with matched the freeze brand on the colt that wasn't much good and in his box at home!
The stipes scratched the horse, accused Ken of a ring in and the promise of further investigation before severe punishment and the bus load of supporters went home confused and disappointed.


A week later Ken gets a call from the "authority" telling him no further action would be taken as he had indeed taken the right horse to HP last week, and the registration people would require the papers of both colts so they could amend them.(A mistake had been made by Trotting Authority staff when the 2 colts were registered and the freeze brands on the PAPERS were wrong!

So people are human, honest mistakes can be made.

[Greg Hando]

Didnt NSW trots have their own case of Fine Cotton this year in the form of Uncle Lile......which a few of the stewards forgot to check only to discover it was the wrong horse that raced on two or so occasions......A very professional outift!
No Doug the right horse raced it was a typo error on assessment card i believe.

[triplev123]

Didnt NSW trots have their own case of Fine Cotton this year in the form of Uncle Lile......which a few of the stewards forgot to check only to discover it was the wrong horse that raced on two or so occasions......A very professional outift!


[VVV] A 2008 colt foal from Lady Of The South, he was initially down as being by Modern Art & in fact as a 2yo he won by open lengths at his 2nd start under that parentage...but later it was found there had been an error & while he was indeed the 2008 foal from Lady Of The South, he was in fact by Dawn Ofa New Day not Modern Art. Nothing nefarious in it in any way, shape or form.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Wasn't there a mix up with the paperwork/parentage or something with Dee En a Macray a few years back, hence the name?

[Gtrain]

One of the best here was Bad Boy Nitro in Perth. From memory it raced for a few weeks under a different name with no one the wiser.

[strong persuader]

To get back on topic, just picked up this tidbit of information.

BENTLEY BACK
The former Harness Racing NSW steward Matthew Bentley was spotted at Warwick Farm's barrier trials on Thursday. He watched Bag Of Nickels, whose ownership includes his father and Mark Vallender. Bentley and a fellow steward, Paul O'Toole, resigned from HRNSW in August, sparking the corruption scandal. He has not been charged by police, although he was mentioned in the charges laid against O'Toole.


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/horseracing/justice-quest-smoken-up-disqualification-challenged-20111217-1ozsm.html#ixzz1gxx7YcuV

[Airds]

Did bentley and o'toole resign ???

[A BIT DUSTY]

Did bentley and o'toole resign ???

They Sure Did After being busted with damning evidence they slithered away like the low life's they are.

[tiny]

Sorry but the evidence can't have been to daming or I think the police would have charged him by now.

[Airds]

Resigned ? I have heard lots of different reports about how they left ! Damning evidence ? Like ?

[tiny]

And that was my point if the evidence was so daming would he not have been charged with all the others.