Mr. X

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flashing Red

Getting legal representation does not mean someone is guilty of anywrong doing. I would never, ever go to an appeal, hearing, whatever, without legal representation, no matter how small the infraction is. IMHO harness racing hearings, appeals etc have A LOT to be desired in regards to due process/natural justice and I would want to make sure that those prosecuting me are playing within the rules. Has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

The risk is that if procedures aren't followed correctly there is always a chance decisions could be overturned down the track. There was a race at Tamworth a while back that resulted in long suspensions/disqualifications that were subsequently overturned upon appeal. If I was a steward that would be enough for me to turn it up. A lot of the evidence is always circumstantial and in most rorts the driver is always a "victim of circumstance". Again it's a fine line to balance both sides in terms of fairness and maintaining the integrity of the sport but hopefully we can find the happy medium.

I despise the use of Lawyers by persons who wish to escape their right whack on technical grounds. I would find it hard to compete against those who have confessed to being involved in a systematic scam designed to defraud everyone related to the harness racing industry. The damage this has caused to the Industry would be hard to quantify but I'd suggest to you that there are many 000's on the end of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flashing Red

Getting legal representation does not mean someone is guilty of anywrong doing. I would never, ever go to an appeal, hearing, whatever, without legal representation, no matter how small the infraction is. IMHO harness racing hearings, appeals etc have A LOT to be desired in regards to due process/natural justice and I would want to make sure that those prosecuting me are playing within the rules. Has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

Your first sentence is right in theory, however, in one of the cases mentioned, a driver was warned off for not supplying the relevant phone records to the authorities as requested. Many people beforehand were asked and obliged to the request. The precedent was set afew weeks earlier when Vallender was warned off for not supplying his records to the authorities. This is pretty cut and dried. He is guilty of not supplying his phone records to the authorities, as HRNSW do not have them, so they acted accordingly and warned him off all racecourses. So the only need for a lawyer in this instance would be to find a loophole for him to resume competing in the sport, without having to supply his phone records. There is no hearing set down or any charges laid in this particular case. If the driver fronts up with the records, the ban is overturned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister JayKO

I despise the use of Lawyers by persons who wish to escape their right whack on technical grounds. I would find it hard to compete against those who have confessed to being involved in a systematic scam designed to defraud everyone related to the harness racing industry. The damage this has caused to the Industry would be hard to quantify but I'd suggest to you that there are many 000's on the end of it.

Exactly right, but the writing is on the wall, you know this is exactly what is going to happen when all this comes to a head.

There is a lot of speculation as to just who is involved in all this cheating. What about the owners who have horses in these stables that may be outed. How would you feel if you had a live chance in a big race only to have your driver / trainer suspended or outed and required to make these changes days before a big race.

N.S.W. stewards need to do the right thing by owners as this could be a big problem if some large stables are involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawshank Redemption

There is a lot of speculation as to just who is involved in all this cheating. What about the owners who have horses in these stables that may be outed. How would you feel if you had a live chance in a big race only to have your driver / trainer suspended or outed and required to make these changes days before a big race.

N.S.W. stewards need to do the right thing by owners as this could be a big problem if some large stables are involved.

What would you propose that the stewards should do Shawshank ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawshank Redemption

There is a lot of speculation as to just who is involved in all this cheating. What about the owners who have horses in these stables that may be outed. How would you feel if you had a live chance in a big race only to have your driver / trainer suspended or outed and required to make these changes days before a big race.

N.S.W. stewards need to do the right thing by owners as this could be a big problem if some large stables are involved.

the same owners pocketing prizemoney and punting money after the stable has cheated for them?

how about owners take a stand and say i don't want to be involved with a cheating stable and send the horses elsewhere

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rainmaker

Your first sentence is right in theory, however, in one of the cases mentioned, a driver was warned off for not supplying the relevant phone records to the authorities as requested. Many people beforehand were asked and obliged to the request. The precedent was set afew weeks earlier when Vallender was warned off for not supplying his records to the authorities. This is pretty cut and dried. He is guilty of not supplying his phone records to the authorities, as HRNSW do not have them, so they acted accordingly and warned him off all racecourses. So the only need for a lawyer in this instance would be to find a loophole for him to resume competing in the sport, without having to supply his phone records. There is no hearing set down or any charges laid in this particular case. If the driver fronts up with the records, the ban is overturned.

You are being presumptuous and jumping to conclusions. What has happened may run deeper than phone records. Neither you or I will know until this all gets aired in public, whenever that may be. HRNSW are doing their investigations, of which the phone records pertain - perhaps a lawyer was retained for the criminal side of the investigation. You just don't know. There is a police investigation going on as well, anyone involved with the police, guilty of wrong doing or not, should have a lawyer.

This doesn't mean I don't think those involved shouldn't get their just desserts. I do. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flashing Red

You are being presumptuous and jumping to conclusions. What has happened may run deeper than phone records. Neither you or I will know until this all gets aired in public, whenever that may be. HRNSW are doing their investigations, of which the phone records pertain - perhaps a lawyer was retained for the criminal side of the investigation. You just don't know. There is a police investigation going on as well, anyone involved with the police, guilty of wrong doing or not, should have a lawyer.

This doesn't mean I don't think those involved shouldn't get their just desserts. I do. :)

I don't think I'm being presumptuous or jumping to conclusions, everything I've said has been related to what has been printed in the media, namely the SMH indicating that a source close to the driver said they would be pursuing legal representation to have his ban overturned, which was imposed on him by HRNSW for not supplying his phone records when requested.

There could be more to it, you're right we won't know until it all comes out, but my opinion is only based on what has been reported by the media. I don't mind you that you don't share my point of view, cause as I've said before at the end of the day we all want the same result here, so I'm sure you'd like to see those convicted brought to justice like everyone else.

I think everyone, in every thread I have read in relation to this subject on here have been very diligent when commenting on such issues, not releasing names or shooting from the hip, even though there are posters out there who know plenty about whats going on and it must be hard to keep quiet on the matter.

This is an issue a lot of people in the industry have an opinion on and show some passion about, which can be evidenced by the surge in new forum members signing up and commenting on the related threads. I believe everyones got a valid view, and that alot of people just want to let off some steam regarding the whole situation as they are very upset with what has transpired.

I agree with you, perhaps I misread your post. I just can't see how hiring a lawyer means someone is looking for loopholes, ie not handing in phone records and retaining a lawyer. At this point in time, I think it is a bit of a stretch to make, that's all......

Your to nice of a person Flashing Red.
Once you have been lied to, stolen from, threatened with and deceived to the largest degree, The faith that you seem to be placing in these type of people will no longer exist.(trust me):)
I would like to hear your thoughts on this, 5 years from now:)