muscles yankee

Hi Flashing Red

It's an interesting topic frozen semen, some people do prefer fresh/chilled but another thing to look at is most stallions are frozen down when they are starting out so there semen should be of good quality so i can't see the difference. People see a sire not performing by frozen semen but little do they know his live foals to winners, Bettor's Delight would be a good example of this and how well his frozen semen foals have performed they are 4yr old and older and they have done a great job. There's a lot more work in serving a mare frozen and more cost involved so thats the main turn off.

there is no way that age of the mare, freezing semen or using ET will change the chromosomes present in the resulting foal...

its all just people looking for excuses of why horses aren't stars without blaming their own mangement

there is more chance of a horses ability being ruined by a trainer or breaker imo...i

I have spoken to some of the best breeders (of classic, Derby and Grand Circuit winners) in Australia who will disagree with you, but me personally I do not know enough or have had enough experience with frozen semen or ET to comment. I do believe that technology has come ahead in leaps and bounds so the results of these alternative methods, when people first formed their opinions all those years ago, are more likely inaccurate today. I will say however that the older a mare gets, the more likely her better offspring are behind her. That is what I have had experience with and you would be silly to think the age of a mare doesn't play a part, for example, in a purchaser's decision whether to buy a certain yearling in a sale. The same goes for stallions. For years the southern hemisphere got America's rejects - stallions that were great stallions in their day but once they started to wind down, they ended up here. I stand by my comments that more favourable results are achieved with ET by using a younger surrogate mare - this is the common belief in America after trial and error in a breeding industry a hell of a lot bigger than ours. It has nothing to do with (mis)management, or looking for an excuse.

what year it is that mares become old?

Quote:

Originally Posted by buster

i bet you didnt find 1 vet or anyone with a tertiary level background in genetics or science that told you that... it was even the reverse myth in the fisheries where they believed older mothers produced higher quality offspring (and this has been extensively studied)

You lost the bet, 2 were vets (one from Canada, one from America, but heck, does that not count because they are not from Australia?) but sadly none were geneticists. I do not believe what scientists say as the gospel. Science cannot explain why massive doses of Vitamin C, colloidal silver, hydrogen peroxide and plain balanced diet cured Flashing Red's joint infection when the Ballarat Vet Clinic and all their tests and drugs over several months could not. I could go on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buster

ps- the sushi sushi gang are not disappointed with their ET foal out of an old mare

That's just one example but its good to hear regardless as next season we will be using ET, albeit with a young, large and unraced mare that is also an excellent mother.

What I can't understand is that you come across that anyone that believes contrary to yourself on this topic must be stupid. Like it's so obvious that you are right. Its not about being right, its about differing opinions. If it really was that dried, done and dusted there would never be any discussion on this topic as it would be accepted. The fact that there are still qualms about frozen semen, embryo transfer etc shows that this topic is still not settled, which may also mean that you (and me) may not be right. ;) Like I have said, I really don't have enough personal experience to comment on frozen semen or ET but was rather providing what many people still believe to be a genuine other side of the coin. My lack of experience in this field means my opinions are shaped by those around me, who I would be happy to achieve 1/4 of what they have in many cases!! :)

I don't know, many people formed their opinions years ago on frozen semen and ET when it were in their infancy and you can't tell me with better technology and techniques of today that it would not produce better, if not more consistent, results. People's problems are they are stuck in the past and don't want to move forward. However lets move forward when there is compelling evidence to do so.

I would never normally endorse ET however there has been some compelling evidence for its cause. There is also beginning to be compelling evidence for the use of frozen semen, one example as previously mentioned is Bettor's Delight. When push comes to shove, people want to breed the best horse they can, I really think that is all it boils down to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buster

what year it is that mares become old?

Common consensus (if people believe in age being a factor) is that at 20 a mare's best producing days are behind her, perhaps a little earlier for stallions. I enjoy reading sometimes in the trot guide, in the breeding section, the foal number certain stakes horses are, etc. There have been some crackers (maybe Monkey King but I stand to be corrected?) that were "older mum" foals. To counteract this argument many people say that a mare is sent to the better stallions in her first few years, if she does not make it then, she will go to stallions of lesser quality etc which can also explain why. If it was my own mare I would not worry about it, but if I were buying one in the sales (when I finish my degree! lol!!) and I was torn between 2 - one was out of a 12yo mare and one out of a 25yo mare, I think that would play some part in the decision making process (and I don't think I'm alone, rightly or wrongly!) :)

Do you know what I am very interested to see Buster? How Somebeachsomewhere's Southern Hemisphere (frozen) crop perform compared to his North American (chilled) crop. He had an outstanding book of mares here as I am sure he would have no doubt got in North America too. It would be interesting if one crop does a better job overall than the other or the results are pretty similar, whether he is a success or failure. :)

if it wasn't for the advances that frozen semen and ET brought to australia we'd all be paying 4 dollars a litre for milk and god knows how much for a feed lot steak

what i just can't grasp about his whole ET/frozen semen/old mares thing is that people are saying that an animals genotype is being effected by its mothers phenotype

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flashing Red

Do you know what I am very interested to see Buster? How Somebeachsomewhere's Southern Hemisphere (frozen) crop perform compared to his North American (chilled) crop. He had an outstanding book of mares here as I am sure he would have no doubt got in North America too. It would be interesting if one crop does a better job overall than the other or the results are pretty similar, whether he is a success or failure. :)

i wouldnt be surprised if he did better out here, those direct scooter line horses have revolutionized the breed (in nz - aussie)..or maybe that line has done all its rapid growth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flashing Red

There is also beginning to be compelling evidence for the use of frozen semen, one example as previously mentioned is Bettor's Delight. When push comes to shove, people want to breed the best horse they can, I really think that is all it boils down to.

How about this for some more compelling evidence - Somethingaboutmaori, A Touch of Flair, Let Me Thru, I Can Doosit, Skyvalley, Zesta, Down Under Muscles, Kyvalley Road, Lord of the Gym, Miami H