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Apparently it was from 9am on race day. Unlike from a couple of years back when they kept all runners in lockdown at Geelong. In theory it was a good idea, but didn't suit most horses (routine, heat etc) including my mates horse.Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
D-Barns should be made mandatory for big $ races. I sincerely hope they eventually have one in place at Menangle.
D-Barns?Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
Please don't make me have to go back and find the Cello Player in the Marching Band clip again Leigh. :rolleyes:
D-Barns to put D-Horses in.............
Humor me. I'm not familiar with American jargon.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
APPARENTLYQuote:
Originally Posted by lucky camilla"s lovechild
was it or wasn't it ????????????????????
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild
Your welcomeQuote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
I wonder if Luke is an early riser lol?????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild
D-Barns = Detention Barns.
I can't speak for the all USA tracks, but The Meadowlands has one and stewards can enforce a horse nominated for any races by my understanding for up to 48-72hrs prior to it's respective race, irrespective of the status of the race.
Your horse trains down for that race under detention barn lockdown.
They can do it to any horse, more so, any trainer they have suspicions on as far as I'm aware.
Thanks for that info Nathan. Very intresting.........
Let me guess. Franco Jamar running into the mobile and Karloo Mick getting 3 pegs. Remember Villagem ran 3rd from 3 pegs last year and hasn't won a race since.Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Thanks for the info. Thought it may have been Drug- Barn. Ha ha ha .Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Frank
There are none so blind, than those that will not seeQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
hey dennyQuote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Its important that you have all the facts before you create unfounded rumour and innuendo.
Did you know that the security employed on Lukes horses on Miracle Mile night was exactly the same as the security the week before the MM??
Care to guess how Luke's stable went that night???
Ill help you out - 4 winners...
Pleasseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Hi HarveyQuote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
I don't know were you get your information from.,but maybe you should get a new source .
The race Day security turned up at 7.00 am on M.M morning.
The ONLY other race to have this security was the Truere at Bankstown, which Washakie won so well. not the Cordina night as you thought
My info is straight from the person responsible for making these decisions so I think he might know
I personally have had enough of all this he said, she said stuff.
A similar thread on this has already run it's race and been closed .
It is starting to look as though I have a personal vendetta or something which I do not.
I have just been airing my own thoughts, and sometimes correcting some misinformation
I believe that Luke is a very good trainer, but on his own admission "quote I don't do much with them on the track" to me rules out these sudden improved performances by physical training
He may be a great reader of a horse and see's things that even the best haven't seen .
He may just be the best farrier to have ever put a shoe on a horse.
He is certainly one very special driver.
I've been told he has great staff.
There are probably a 100 reasons why his horses would go good.
But the thing that I have been saying is in my experience I have never seen these sort of performances at the scale that he is achieving.
I have said in previous threads if he is achieving it on training alone than IMO he is the best trainer we have ever seen ( and he just may be only time will tell)
I have been getting stacks of private messages from near and far from people who have the same questions ,but choose to stay out of the public domain.
So unless someone comes up with an outrages post on this subject , I will not be posting on this topic again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
For mine, I think Luke is the best trainer/driver in the last 20yrs throughout Australia.
He is literally hitting his straps now as a Trainer because when in Brisbane, most were in Dad John's name while Luke was developing as a Trainer / Driver in his own right.
Remember everyone, he did have horses like Slipnslide, Fluer De Lil, For A Reason when still in Brisbane, yet travelled them and won feature races in multiple states.
His success may seem 'overnight' but in my opinion is very far from that.
It's plain and simple to see that owners with any amount of common sense are ringing his number off the hook wanting him to take their horses so at the moment, he's probably knocking back initially or taking on and trialling, then culling the ones he doesn't want and is maintaining a high-performance team. Nothing wrong with this methodology as it get's results and is nothing different to what the likes of Waller and Waterhouse do at the gallops.
He is the best driver at Menangle by so far it's not funny. The majority of drivers at Menangle are quite literally pathetic and it has to be the worst crop of 'Metro' status drivers I've seen in 20-30yrs.
I'm of the understanding he has a good, strong staff underneath him and he runs his place sharp, getting the job done with which a happy team is a good team with any business. His workers I assume would all be getting rewarded, plus they are seeing their efforts supporting him achieve success on the track. A young man like Rue is getting mammoth enjoyment I would think just driving the calibre of horse in that barn, let alone the number of winners and the flow on extra $ that comes from his winning percentages.
The quote made above "I don't do much with them on the track" I think has been mis-represented a little and I've heard the same but it was in context that he doesn't burn them up at home and over work them which fundamentally is old school methods.
From my understanding, swimming and galloping are big part of his methodology and his focus appears to be on recuperation during the week, knowing full well that they will go to the races and have to spin off good times to win races consistently. Once your racing consistently with 51's and 52's next to your name, you don't have to keep burning them up at home during the week, they are already fit and it's about maintenance, much the same as NRL and AFL clubs do during the season, all their base fitness is done off-season or in a horses case, his 6-8 weeks pre-prep work before trialling/going to the races.
Luke took over a well established set-up at Cobbitty with his move down here and from what I hear has transformed it ten-fold again so good luck to him. He's investing in his and his families future so full bloody credit goes to him I say. Remember this is his business so it's no different to a businessman expanding and growing, employing good staff and becoming efficient with his methods and stock.
I think HRNSW should do more promotion on the back of McCarthy as he's easily the most marketable young man since Brian Hancock in the 80's and 90's and out of what's been a disgraceful 2011, 2012 and the future of harness racing in this state should run alongside this man's success. This young man should be featuring in the mainstream racing media weekly as his success is akin to a Chris Waller at the gallops, albeit the Harness Ind. does not have the 'sexy' projection of the gallops.
I wish their were more young men coming through the likes of him. As a horseman, he plays everyone in this state off a break he's that far better and I congratulate him and wish him every success in the future. He is a very well presented young man in the media when interviewed and his team is presneted first rate, why wouldn't owners be clamoring to have a horse in his barn? 90+% of Harness Trainers and Drivers present themselves like shit at the races so who can take them seriously and so-called 'professional'.
The bigots who lambast him simply aren't good enough to train or drive like him and it's just jealousy at it's finest.
Well done Luke, keep up the success.
P.S: Footnote, for the record, I am completely independent in my opinions and I do not have any involvement with the McCarthy stable, no horse ownership with anyone in the industry and can only lay claim to having a passing polite hello with Luke and his father John at the races previously.
I did say I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread and was quite enjoying Old Franks Post until this little bit comes along.
The bigots who lambast him simply aren't good enough to train or drive like him and it's just jealousy at it's finest.
And you know what I seem to have read the same rhetoric from supporters of Ben Johnston, Marion Jones, Chris Gleeson , the Chinese Women's Swimming team, etc etc.etc
And those who dared to question their sudden improved performances where also portrayed by the ignorant in a similar fashion as this pathetic statement .
And you know what in all of that inspiring testimony ,I still didn't see an explanation for the dramatic improved performances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
With the point highlighted above, one could say the same goes for you ABD. I certainly haven't read everyone of your posts (nor intend too), but haven't sighted any evidence from you to support your poorly veiled insinuations that Luke's success is down to anything but drug use.
Frank to borrow another forum users quote If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, it usually is a Rat . All Iv'e ever asked is for someone to convince me it isn't a Rat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Frank
Sounds like a reasonable request. But all I've received so far is how good a bloke he is , how good a driver he is, bla bla bloody bla .Which I have agreed with a hundred times .
But nobody has offered a plausible explanation for improved performances on a scale that I personally have never seen before.
P.S I don't believe I have ever stated that I think he is using Drugs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
ABD, please don't go all back pedal on us now. Your post #62 openly infers drug use / drug cheats when the topic you and I were bantering back and forth was L.McCarthy. At least have the gumption to stand by your inference.
You state nobody has a plausible explanation for McCarthy's success, yet you base your statements and inferences of him and his stables performance on the 'smells a rat' theory! Weak to say the least.
Currently - L.McCarthy - no positive swabs / no involvement in steward rorting and no charges for driving offences in recent memory, yet winning races consistently so now we all are to dismiss his success following hard work / good training / good driving / well graded horses on the improve which are subsequently well placed to acheive success and yet you would like us all to dismiss this on your 'smells a rat' theory? Please give us a break.
You were all self-righteous earlier stating that you weren't going to comment further yet you wailed straight back in the very next post. I think your credibility lacks when your soap-boxing about wanting justification from anyone regarding Luke's success, yet all you can do is cast disgraceful and baseless innuendo/aspersion following your 'smell a rat' theory!
Yep your right I must be all of those things Guilty as charged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Frank
Shame on me for having those bad thoughts about an ANGEL . what was I thinking .
I'll have to stop forming opinions on what I have seen in my 53yrs and just run with the week and be silent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Well ABD, opinions are what everyone's entitled too, but your version of opinion is casting aspersions / innuendo based on nothing but 'smells a rat' theory and is poor form in most people's assessement.
Shoe on the other foot, I suppose you'd love people in your circle of life casting versions of 'opinion' on you based on the thought you 'smelt like a rat' hey? I wouldn't have thought you would?
If McCarthy or anyone for that matter get's a positive, well they have to be answerable to that and yes, you'd be right there with the "I told you so", but as facts stands, you've got nothing. (Sorry ABD, 'smells a rat' probably just doesn't stand up to a positive charge!)
I hope as stated before Luke and his team have nothing but continued success. I think he's great for harness racing and good luck to him.
P.S: And please don't go sulking along with your 53yr comment trying to take some high ground 'know better/know all' perspective. Fact stands, your argument was flawed and baseless, nothing more, nothing less.
You compare Luke to :
Ben Johnson - proven cheat
Marion Jones - proven cheat
Chinese swimmers - proven cheats
but you say you are not calling him a cheat... give me a break
In most jurisdictions and courts of law around the world, you are innocent until proven guilty, but in Dennys court you have to prove your innocence!!!
I suppose in your world, Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Ian Thorpe etc are all cheats... :(:(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Frank
Nathan you stated you haven't read all of my post if you had you would have seen that I too have a high regard for Luke and would be only to happy to say My fears were unfounded.
Check out the thread ANYONE WANT TO GUESS #22 and you'll see that I have stated that on this forum.
Also if I was to show you some of my replies to the stack of private messages I have had on this issue ,you might appreciate that It is my greatest wish that all is above board ; but mate I get tired of the same old line that if you have suspicions you must be a jealous bigot as you elegantly put it.
HERE'S TO LUKE McCARTHY BEING PROVEN AS THE GREATEST HARNESS TRAINER IN HISTORY
AMEN
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
Nice to hear from you again Harvey I thought you had disappeared after your gaff about the Cordina security .
You appear to have missed the purpose of that inference .
I at no stage compared Luke to anyone, I told Old Frank that people where saying the same things about those people and they where later proven to be wrong.
Denny,Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
firstly i am a Victorian and dont claim to b an expert on NSW Trots...
However i see these points in Lukes favor that i see contributing to his success vs other trainers/drivers...
1. he spent a fair bit of time in the US driving for good trainers, u couldnt help but learn training methods for the US style of racing...
2. his brother Andy has been there for many years, do u reckon they dont talk and give each other ideas and knowledge?
2. oh look, Menangle is a 1400m track which predominantly has mile racing like the US, maybe Luke has a chance to use his skills in mile driving and training????
3. how often does he take horses to bathurst, wagga, penrith and the other SMALL OLD FASHIONED tracks that dont suit his horses who have been trained to the BIG TRACK mile racing? More to this point, he doesnt take them there because even if u have the best horse in the race, its easier to get beat because u r running around a saucepan and there are more chances of not getting out or pushed 6 wide around a 100m turn etc. (yes i have seen horses not get a run in the straight at Menangle!)
so, because he doesnt go to the "little" tracks and subsequesntly lose more races, he keeps a high winning strike rate at Menangle. Basic maths...pretty smart i reckon.
Just my 2 cents worth...
ASH totally agree with every thing you said. ( although I think you'll find he has a near perfect record at Bathurst in the last couple of months)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maorisidol
cheers Denny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Frank
Wouldn't matter if was 53yrs or 20yrs you can't argue against History, and History shows that over the years there has been plenty of loyal subjects just like you, who have blindly followed, only to be disappointed down the track .
I genuinely hope you are not one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
We'll agree to disagree ABD. There are plenty of great trainers over the years who have had great careers with no positives and to my mind, relying on simple effective methods. (Baldy Hancock comes to mind as not receiving a positive through his great career, I could be wrong, but certainly not off memory?)
Thanks for patronising me by being a 'loyal subject', but I do know the game having been involved previously and know there are plenty of trainers 'doing something', however I genuinally believe McCarthy's got his training methods right, getting plenty of stock coming into his barn at either the right grade, or with the right ability and not yet fully exposed so he improves it automatically under better training and driving, I think he's an exceptional driver and has a strong, committed staff, plus utilising superb facilities all working towards those horses being in the best shape going to the races.
Everyone will cast their 'opinion' on his success, but as I said in earlier posts, I think his 'success' isn't overnight as he was acheiving fantastic results in Brisbane, it's now because he is down here, a young man in his own right that we are seeing it first hand week-in, week-out so to speak.
Time will tell with where his career pans out, but he's the best thing to happen to harness racing in this state in 20yrs, no doubt.
Moari's,
Along with what ABD was saying, McCarthy has dominated on the recent nights he's gone to Bathurst, along with Wagga there one night where he had 3-4 winners off memory also. He's winning multiples at Newcastle as well when there and Penrith as well although seems to focus his energies on Menangle.
McCarthy brought the old set-up at Cobbitty that P.Walsh, followed by D.Wilson trained out of and both men had plenty of top-flight success training there. It's a superb half-mile track, balanced and cambered well and in my opinion, horses training down well on half-mile tracks only grow a leg then when going to the bigger tracks as it's even more comfortable racing on the bigger circuits. From what I hear Luke's also put another track down as well (maybe a heavier base for the galloping methods he utilises?) so by the sounds of it, along with his swimming facility there, he really has a top-notch, diverse set-up developing there.
Gone are the days of working them at your local track with two heats of two miles and then on off days, jogging for 40minutes.
'so, because he doesnt go to the "little" tracks and subsequesntly lose more races, he keeps a high winning strike rate at Menangle. Basic maths...pretty smart i reckon'
Ash, he goes go to the 'little' tracks. As Old Frank stated Bathurst,Wagga,Penrith,Newcastle, he also has 5 in at Maitland on Sat.
Nathan as I have said countless times I am actually a fan of LukesQuote:
Originally Posted by Old Frank
This all started when I made a comment that I had never seen such dramatic improvements on this scale, the likes of Mandy Rambo no wins last 10 strs at places like Young, Wagga, Canberra etc and then wins eight out of 13 all at menangle in sensational fashion, Artifactor no wins last 17strs for B Hancock then wins 1st start for Luke .Roman Stride had not won in it's last 7 strs for N Day but wins 6 out of 8 including a 2nd for Luke.
My mistake was saying "if he is achieving these results on training alone then he is the best trainer we have ever seen" and it has Snowballed to were it is now .
I certainly did not accuse Luke of using Drugs, ( and clearly stated that in an earlier post) I now see that some people may have seen it that way,, but as I started to get attacked for MY opinion I started to get my back up.
The more people gave me, the more I felt I had to respond as my response to the( jealous bigot comment,)was " I remember supporters of those disgraced sportsman saying the same"
As with anyone who is passionate about something I probably go over board sometimes when trying to make a point , ( something that I will try to curb).
So for the second time I'll Retire from this subject and hope that Luke goes on to greatness.
Peteboss and Old Frank... "firstly i am a Victorian and dont claim to b an expert on NSW Trots..."Quote:
Originally Posted by peteboss4
I hear ya...
My point being he primarily concentrates on Menangle as his mainstay, after all that's why he moved from Qld...No Menangle no Luke...
Anyone is free to make an opinion however you can't make facts. Just look at the raw facts and you will see that his improvements are similar to that made using performance enhancing drugs. Read Thomas Tobins books on the percentage improvements that he gets using various drugs. A lot of trainers use drugs/treatments and some are legal. I don't know and I bet that none of you know whether LM's are legal or just not detectable.Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Read some literature or review results of human/equine performances over time. It usually takes a long time to make big improvements. This is the point that Denny is trying to make. It's an old book, however see how long it took Tom Iver's to get improvements through interval training. This might put things into perspective for a few people.
The other thing is that LM makes big improvements on race fit horses which is hard to do. Usually when a horse changes stable, it will go off it's feed and be unsettled for a few weeks. So then, this is the hardest time to get the biggest improvements.
There is so much BS on this forum about LM having better day yards, tracks, yardsticks, swimming holes, blacksmiths, driving styles, selection of horses etc. Doesn't any other trainer have these things? They help but don't account for the scale of improvements that he makes in the time that he makes them.
LM is smart enough to drive his horses to their ability and doesn't drive the slower ones in the same way.
Doesn't the likes of Fitzpatrick, Day etc. know how to train horses anymore? They buy and train well bred horses and just aren't in the game at the moment against LM.
Some mention that LM gallops and swims them. Yeah, we'll I would too because it saves a whole lot of time versus gearing a horse up with hopples when you have so many horses in work. I'm not sure that it's just because it's a better way to work them.
Take a step back without emotion and look at the raw facts. Speak to anyone involved in sport performance and discuss the results that this guy is getting. If they are without drugs then they defy alot of science and knowledge around sports training/performance.
Whether he's using drugs or not then it doesn't bother me. I just think that it's funny when we see such results and so many people think that it's impossible that he's using PED's. It's just as possible that he's using them as it is that he's not.
There is a rule in Harness racing requiring a log book of all treatments. Maybe a steward should sit posted for 3 weeks/24/7 to see if LM's log book is consistent with what he actually gives them. Then we won't need to bother to try and detect anything and could make a judgement on the use or non use of undetectable drugs.
Slightly off topic Jett...but Tom Ivers? As far as equine related mythological beasts go...his Interval Training & Carbo Loading mantras, they were up at the top of the list along with Jack Walmsley's Cycle Breeding theory.