In that case Trevor lets hope they buy yours & ours.
In that case Trevor lets hope they buy yours & ours.
Yes Trish, that would be nice :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
The reason is such that this Thread exists. There are two types of horse that All Stars bring to Australia. It is extremely expensive to bring a horse from NZ to race and hence they are the cream of the crop such as Lazarus, Have Faith in Me,and Dream About Me. THe others like Prince Fearless, Chase the Dream and Picadilly Princess are those able to take full advantage of the Australian Handicapping system. This is something the All Stars do with excellent success. These horses have won most of there races and stakes in 2 and 3 year old restricted age and group races in NZ. Whilst they are recognised in NZ for handicapping they are not in Australia, hence they seriously drop down the grades in Australia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
Post 37 suggests the NZ handicapping system sucks. Many Australians would be thinking the Australian system sucks when they understand it is that very system that allows All Stars to plunder your stakes and races of all grades.
All Stars dont bemoan your system when it works against them either. They look for races to suit the needs and abilities of their horses. A classic case in point is the campaign of Picadilly Princess in West Australia during the Interdoms. Her program was to take in two Group races for fillies and mares assessed at M1 and faster. Unfortunately for the connections including the breeder of such a valuable mare(already a dual Group 1 winner) she was assessed under the Australian system as M0. Remember she was a dual G1 winner but they were both Oaks races for 3yo fillies only. i.e. handicap system took no account of that. Hence All Stars looked to alternatives that met her M0 status. a race well down on her class with the expected result.
I am just stirring a bit Trevor. It is good to hear that quite a few of MP's owners are Australian so that their money may help the Oz industry provided they continue to spend at our sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteblood
If the NZ climate/grass is not a major factor, it will not be long before all the imported NZ blood over here produces as many champs as they seem to (per capita)
Agreed. The Kiwi bench at the Australian sales has grown thanks to Mark and the success he is having with his Aussie purchases. This allows him to further plunder your wealth. Waikiki Beach is a case in point. One of the secrets of All Stars success is being able to place there horses for best effect. Whilst he won at Group 2 level on debut in NZ he was not really rated alongside his stable peers. He was Australian bred and sales product thus eligible for a number of lucrative series. By being so placed by his trainers to ensure his best opportunities a horse who may only have won 2 or 3 races in NZ managed to win 23 consecutivelyQuote:
Originally Posted by eliteblood
Yes Tony and with the far greater racing opportunities over here, it means there will always be a market for NZ horses. I guess it sort of makes up for the fewer racing ops and means many of your owner/breeders are sellers - don't they say that every NZ horse is for sale (for the right price)Quote:
Originally Posted by teecee
[QUOTE=Showgrounds;49604]Interesting thread. While jealousy appears rife at the Purdon / Rasmussen success last night demonstrated how superior their horses are - and they as trainers.
Interesting comment on the TV - whoever it was said Vincent wouldn't have been in the top 5 3yos in the stable at the start of the season. Stupid comment - he won his only start (beating Ultimate Machete easily) before injury put him out.
That comment was initially made by the trainers in regards these horses at 2. That is not to say they are poor judges. It was simply a comment on how each of their youngsters rates against their contemporaries in the stable. At that same time Horses like Ultimate Machete and Waikiki Beach didn't rate in the 5 either. It is a graphic of the strength of their young horses coming up and each year is more astounding than the last.
Time has shown how AllStars can assess the best opportunities for their horses. Ultimate Machete developed to become No1 3yo as he grew into his massive frame and Waikiki Beach plundered 23 straight in Australia where his best options lay rather than just going round behind his "Better rated" stablemates.
While many can only see change when you have been away and come back, the All Stars trainers can see where their horses are at day in, day out and meet the changing needs of the individual horses placing them to greatest advantage for hose and connections.
Lazarus is a bona-fide champion already and he will no doubt be remembered for many decades. At Menangle, the only horse to have beaten him TWICE won going 1:49.9 - Chase the Dream. How he gets assessed as a C3 is beyond me.
[B]Refer post 44...
That's true I can't remeber the name of a horse sold out of the Barry Purdon barn who was on the verge of NZ Cup class, had won over $400,000 including a Jewels race. He went to Queensland and raced as a very lowly assessment because the Australian Handicapping system said those races didn't count. They were age group Group 1-3 races. There is money to be made in Australia for NZ owners and thus a new burgeoning market.....Aussie trainers now looking to train NZ horses for their NZ owners. The message is "dont sell take advantage of the Australian conditions yourself" like the All Stars without the extra costs of return shipping and shorter campaigns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
My point was that the Australian system is very weak (read WAP) when it allows horses from another country to enter into races and get generous handicaps when obviously the horse has more ability than the locals and more to the point has actually proven it. I have been one of the few on this forum to actually praise the Purdon team and their success. My post was general in nature , not about the Purdon team. Ever heard the team "Burglar" in golf? well what is happening is the harness racing version of that. Furthermore, I often read about the Purdon success story being the cause of increased buying at the sales and the money is coming back to Australia etc etc, my radar tells me this " reversing of the money" explanation does not hold water and it's impact cannot be measured as a fact. I think the impact would be minimal.
What other sport allows this generosity to happen? Is there another sporting organisation in the world as stupid as ours that allows this type of thing to go on?
Its not horses from other countries perse, it is horses who won less races over the stakes threshold as an older horse. Lennytheshark came back in an M0 after winning the NSW Derby, Magic Oats won an M0 at Melton despite several Saturday nighy wins at Albion Park. A few get through the cracks but by and large it is better than having a heap of horses reach their mark in lower prizemoney/juvenile events and being lost to the racetrack too early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
I can count 11 yearlings bought from last year's APG sales by Mark Purdon and clients for a total spend of $743,500.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
Not quite sure if that is a for or against- you don't actually say. There are usually 200 yearlings for sale at just one APG sale, say Melbourne for example, so they bought 5%, throw in a couple of high priced yearlings at $120,000 each...big deal. Most readers in this forum would have already known those sales figures. Too easy to find that information, so what about the amount of money going out?
My post was in response to your earlier assertion "Furthermore, I often read about the Purdon success story being the cause of increased buying at the sales and the money is coming back to Australia etc etc, my radar tells me this " reversing of the money" explanation does not hold water and it's impact cannot be measured as a fact. I think the impact would be minimal". It was a statement of fact, for the benefit of the apparent minority who did not already have knowledge of the extent of Purdon connected spending at our sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
Whether it is for or against your assertion will depend on whether or not you regard $743k as a significant amount of money.
For you and anyone else who regards this amount as insignificant it supports your assertion.
Personally, I believe the $743k is a big deal, making up approx 8% of the total sales revenue. So for me, the figures refute your assertion. The argument that a significant amount of money does flow back into Australia does hold water and the effect is not minimal.
Both of your responses have been very feeble. I wrote a post with a few questions in it and you picked the "low hanging fruit" then went back and had a look at past sales results, came up with a "statement of fact" after proving that you could count and in an attempt to support your post. You are now trying to justify your second response that there is a difference of opinion due to whether the dollar amount stated from the sales is significant depending on one's own financial situation. I expected much better and I refute your assertion about my assertion.
Another from Greg Hayes twitter.
Another Purdon stat - since start of 13/14 in Oz - 179 starters for $5,772,072 prize money. Which equates to $32,246 per starter
I cannot see how stating facts is feeble Pat and I am sure that you can do much better than lead with such a sentence. Next, after asking Trevor whether his previous post was for or against, he told you but you don't seem happy about that either. Go ahead and disagree but let's not turn debates into contestsQuote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
Beautifully moderated once again Kev.
Thanks Pat. You know I am big on 'friendly'. I used to follow Carlton on Big Footy but for people who supposedly supported the same team, it sure got ugly sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
Here is an embarrassing link that makes you wonder how this guy ever became a moderator! Teecee makes a point which I now live by and would summarize as 'valuing others'. The way I put it into practice when replying is by re-reading what I have written and asking myself if I would like to receive that reply. Moderating occasionally requires us to make somewhat difficult posts and I very much admire the way you replied Pat
http://www.harnessracingforum.com/sh...ith-moderation
With tongue firm ensconced in cheek and just for fun, if Mark Purdon win all races in which he is represented tonight at Melton (left the southern star alone) the stable will pick up a cool 564K Not bad for a nights work!! Good luck in the cup Adam
By my calculations, the Mark Purdon stable only picked up $125,700 prizemoney at Melton on Saturday night. Lazurus contributed $60k of that total on what was a rather off-night for the Allstars.
Be interesting to know factually how much Purdon and clients spent at the Melbourne yearling sales 2017
We have only had the Melbourne sale so far and I don't know who his clients are but as TC posted elsewhere, here are the resultsQuote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
http://www.apgold.com.au/yearling-sa...lts/melbourne/
The Males, the Strides, Five Arrows syndicate, Geoff Webster, Larry Eastman, and the Butterworths were some of the bigger spenders
Melbourne APG-Sunday February 5Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
cArt Major-Vista Bella -Badlands Hanover. Neil Pilcher $A55,000
c Art Major-Alta Calypso-Village Jasper. Kennard Syndicates $A37,000
c Bettor's Delight-Catapult (USA) -Artsplace Neil Pilcher $A47,000
Merv butterworth also indicated in his interview after the sale that the one he bought was also going to purdons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Showgrounds
Lot 105
Also lot 165 (another for kennards)
http://www.hrnz.co.nz/news-and-event...line-for-jones
Mark Jones is setting up a Sydney stable
HRNSW decided to take back $15k from Mark Purdon's booty
http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=34046
Need to punt that one to the Stewards Report thread, Kev.
$15K is some sort of whack! Another NZ contribution to NSW Harness Racing.
Back on topic, Vincent was a $130K purchase at the 2015 Sydney Australian Gold Sale. So nobody can begrudge this "NZ" horse grabbing back a lazy $246,000 in stakes from 5 NSW starts this season. Especially so when the money goes to his Victorian owners. What goes around comes around.
I would have put it in the Stewards thread but I did not want people to miss what is currently the last post in that thread :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Showgrounds
If the ownership is well spread it could be some consolation but I cannot see how it can be good for other trainers for one if the following domination continues
http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia...tars-onslaught
Like my trainer said to me last week, there is nowhere to hide now, you go to a country track as far away from the city as you can get and there is a kiwi horse purchased for $200,000 waiting for you in a $3500 race, sometimes two of them. Once upon a time the hobby trainer and owner could get a win on the board against similar opposition, not any more.
Whilst the sentiments of this thread are based around ALL Stars they are not necessarily alone.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Compliments of ALL Stars website...
ALL STARS "NOT GOOD FOR THE GAME"-ITS A MYTH
(EDITORIAL)
You hear it wherever you go from a vocal minority-the amazing success of Mark and Natalie is "not good for the game". It is hard to understand what this actually means given aiming to win and excellence in achieving that is what horse racing is supposed to be about. But it appears that dominating of Premier days leaving rival owners out of pocket is one factor.
While the real sportsmen and women in the industry applaud the remarkable chain of success unparallelled in 130 years of our history rivals frustration over what they call the "blue army" is understandable. Mark and Natalie's charges are always hard to beat But "not good for the game ?" -its a myth.
In 2017 All Stars won 50 Premier races, a staggering feat. But in fact horses from Rolleston started in less than 50 per cent of the Premier races held. That left 80 Premier races to be contested without any All Stars colours in the field. Hardly extreme domination-more extreme strike rate, which is quite a different thing.
Domination by large stables,hardly new, is as inevitable in harness racing as it has been with the thoroughbreds. It takes superior horsemanship and the business savvy to capitalise.The forces behind it-especially the dominance of the Yearling Sales now almost a trainer's greatest challenge of the season -and the financial power syndication brings, are similar. It's progress. Indeed relying on a torch-bearing stable like All Stars to raise the profile of the game is far superior to having a series of small teams with little national profile.
Of course this sort of thing is not new as Roy and Barry could tell you. Success always brings envy as well as admiration and success on the All Stars scale adds to both.
Their success can be put down to expert selection of yearlings (more like a genius); expert development of young stars but equally with older ones; patience success brings; a vision of how harness racing is developing at the top level; round the clock planning and hands on work ethic amounting to enormous dedication and so the attraction to owners willing to invest.
Most thinking administrators, far from wanting to blunt the All Stars success (as the new rating system has) know encouraging their long term committment to our industry is essential if they want to be on the big stage.
Stats show there are still plenty of races left to win for others if their horses are good enough. All Stars being "Not good for the game" is not an excuse if they are not.
(Site Editor)
This is relevant not just to NZ but across Australasia as a whole..
Your own research from another thread
We can see the AllStars dominate (and it is highly unlikely that this includes the $933k they have won in Oz) but I was surprised to see that there are 26 trainers who have won in excess of $100k in stakes (even if they are 5 months into their season compared to our 4)
We have to remember that NZ in total only run as many races as Victoria
I only skimmed it after reading "While the real sportsmen ....."
Manipulative arguing to suggest that all that do not agree are not
If you're not sure whether they are taking all the cream, sort the premiership table by prizemoney
Every participant in the industry is welcome to challenge for the title of top dog. However, 99% of them have neither the inclination, knowledge, skills, demeanor, energy and the other 11 secret herbs and spices (no, psychological ones, not pharmaceutical) necessary for them to topple the All Stars. No doubt it is the owners and the horses behind the success, witnessed by their participation at Australian yearling sales in recent years. The spoils, in earlier years, produced Smolda while recently Our Waikiki Beach and Vincent have plundered sires stakes. No doubt yearling sales vendors have been delighted by the stable and its owners being so active. Good luck to all concerned.
Trevor, my problem is that I am not a forgiving chap and I don't ever want to see harness have a scandal of the magnitude of the Tour de France (again)
http://www.harnesslink.com/News/MARK...S-GUILTY-27448
I understand you are not a forgiving person. However, you are drawing a long bow.
There is another thread here called How Can We Improve Harness Racing, or something like it. I would suggest we celebrate the deeds of a stable, its owners and horses that have put a drastically needed spotlight on all that is positive with the sport - champion horses. Or, we could continue to drag down tall poppies which is one thing we do in this business with extreme efficiency. Would you prefer headlines about the success of Purdon's horses or ones like the Aquanita charges that are dominating front pages in every state today?
The incident you mention culminated in tragedy for all concerned. Sometimes, hopefully never, people make decisions in their lives that have dire consequences. Some cannot live with those consequences, some ignore them and others learn from them. Those that learn from them must also learn to wear the stain as they move on with life.
I can think of worse headlines than Aquanita.Quote:
Originally Posted by Showgrounds
"Millionaire Kiwi owner found dead after being charged in blue-magic furore"
Yep, dire consequences as I said. It will be very interesting no to watch the thoroughbred industry wriggle its way through the latest sham. Does it not perform raceday Co2 testing on course? How has it come to this?
Oh, I forgot. The thoroughbreds are supposed to be clean and the trots are supposed to be crooked. I better get back in my cupboard.
Annoys me no end gallops have a cleaner image. However that wasn't the point, the point was Purdon headlines are not good for the sport. Not tall poppy to shoot down Purdon at all. Shooting down of Purdon is largely because of thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Showgrounds
http://www.harnesslink.com/News/MARK...S-GUILTY-27448
With this over his head there is no way any Purdon headlines can ever be good for the sport.
It is a mixture of humorous, condescending and disrespectful to put out print media that states "It takes superior horsemanship and the business savvy to capitalise" to describe your operations when you have past indiscretions.
Trevor, the problem is that we cannot celebrate the deeds of a stable that has a record - it is why athletics could not celebrate Justin Gatlin beating Usain Bolt at the World Championships. Sure it was a fair while ago but if that 's***' was to hit the fan nowadays there is no way he would get a mere 12 months. This is why some would like to see disqualification for serious offences result in loss of license foreverQuote:
Originally Posted by Showgrounds
Might as well shut up shop, then. Those of us who have been actively involved with horses for decades know that if they have never been caught doing anything illegal then the odds are shortening that they soon will. Put this down to the crusade of Dr Phillip Swann back in the 1980's which resulted in rules being changed to reflect it is the trainers' duty to present the horse for racing drug free. That was all drug, including therapeutic ones. Why is betting allowed of football when their would rarely being a player in the AFL not on some sort of painkiller or anti-inflammatory. At least a footballer can tell the club doctor where it hurts. Horses can't do that (unless it's name is Mr ED - of course, of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
We have poor older horses running in open class races and claimers all over the country just to make up the numbers. Is that good for the punting public, or the image of the sport when they invariably start to tire and drop out when crunch time hits in the last lap of a race?
The widespread use of Swann's simplistic rule has, in my honest opinion, must partially take the blame for the loss of many industry participants over the years. The speed of horses has increased dramatically over the past four decades; nobody gets a warm feeling any more in their nether regions when their horse breaks 2 minutes. Unfortunately, the rules have stagnated for much of this time. The practice of milkshaking was pretty widespread among our old friends, the needy and the greedy, during the late '80's / early '90's especially in states like SA. It wasn't so much the bicarb soda (it is no wonder drug), it was what was added to it that mattered. Unfortunately, swabbing could not detect the additives only the bicarb that masked the true culprit. So, they introduced an acceptable level of bicarb detectable in the blood. A very smart filly of mine was always just below the limit through her natural blood levels. Prior to then, we used to use off the shelf products like Staminade the day before a race and the day after to stop horses from dehydrating. Nobody ever thought of it as "cheating"; we were just looking after the horse. These days, you have to be very careful in how you "look after the horse"!
The real blight on the game, though, is the failure to recognize most our equine athletes bleed internally. Just like human ones when they perform at extreme levels under stress. Unfortunately, those that police our sport these days are not horsemen of old who understand the stresses horses go through just to get to racing stage let alone win or be competitive. I'd love to hand any steward a horse and a set of harness (without notice) and ask them to gear it up and put it in the cart. Would be great on U-Tube.
The definition of a horse bleeding in Australia is when a steward observes blood coming from either nostril. The official "cure" is a 3 month ban - no recommendation for a course of treatment. If the horse comes back to racing they usually perform below their former self. Usually, they are still bleeding but undetected. In the North America, the horse is notified as a bleeder and can continue to race on Lasix which prevents most bleeding. That has been the case for many decades. Unfortunately, our "substance free" stance protects only the punter but not the horses.
On the other hand, Kev, the needy and the greedy will still try and find that competitive edge. The latest bicarb "scandal" will come and go. The bigger scandals have been the Cobalt and Blue Magic ones. One problem - has a horse EVER produced a positive test to either after WINNING a race? Didn't think so! Perhaps reviewing the current rules re supplements and regulated therapeutic treatments would give EVERY horse, trainer and owner the competitive edge they seek.
And then come down harder on the needy and the greedy! Just sayin'.
Let ye who has committed no sin cast the first stone.