Goodbye Lance

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Originally Posted by ringman

Its also a reliever for inflammation and arthritic conditions which makes it a performance enhancer but not according to the wizard on here

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If it is as Ringman indicates and if 15 mg/l is legal, what pain relief would 25 mg/l do. From documents read it appears over 600 mg/l up to 000's mg/l are the norm when given in treatments

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Originally Posted by ringman

Its also a reliever for inflammation and arthritic conditions which makes it a performance enhancer but not according to the wizard on here

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When you read this site ,we'll all be on the stuff.http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm

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Originally Posted by p plater

If it is as Ringman indicates and if 15 mg/l is legal, what pain relief would 25 mg/l do. From documents read it appears over 600 mg/l up to 000's mg/l are the norm when given in treatments

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It's not what the level is at the time of the swab that tell you what benefit the horse gets, If you have a horse with cronic joint pain or arthritis drenching with High levels of DMSO can help relief both of these ailments. It is NOT illegal to do this as long as by the time you present your horse to race it is inside the legal threshold .... the same as bi-carb it is also not illegal to use but you have a level you have to be under to race , So treating a horse with DMSO leading into a race can be just as tricky as bi-carb, as the trainer you have to make sure your calculations are spot on or you run the risk of a positive swab

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Originally Posted by ringman

Its also a reliever for inflammation and arthritic conditions which makes it a performance enhancer but not according to the wizard on here

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Pain relief doesn't improve performance. It merely allows peak performance to occur.
It only allows for ability to be realised, it doesn't increase ability.

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

Pain relief doesn't improve performance. It merely allows peak performance to occur.
It only allows for ability to be realised, it doesn't increase ability.

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Brendan, I suggest you take that argument to the various racing authorities.

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

Pain relief doesn't improve performance. It merely allows peak performance to occur.
It only allows for ability to be realised, it doesn't increase ability.

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Brendan I think your clutching at straws on this one mate , if a horse is racked with pain and you treat it with a pain reliever which allows it to perform at a greater level than it would have without the pain relief then surely this is enhancing it's performance.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Brendan, I suggest you take that argument to the various racing authorities.

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It has been debated not just in racing but in the world outside of racing.

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Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

Brendan I think your clutching at straws on this one mate , if a horse is racked with pain and you treat it with a pain reliever which allows it to perform at a greater level than it would have without the pain relief then surely this is enhancing it's performance.

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Only on the race-day/night. It doesn't actually make the horse better. It merely just allows it to race to its potential.

It's a fine line but surely painkillers aren't in the same league as growth hormones etc?

I'm not condoning the use or presentation of a horse to race with the drug in its system, all I'm saying is it doesn't make the horse better.

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

Pain relief doesn't improve performance. It merely allows peak performance to occur.
It only allows for ability to be realised, it doesn't increase ability.

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Is that right ??? so if the horse is only capable of performing at 80% in pain and its given pain relief and performs at 95% that hasnt improved its performance had it run with the pain.

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

It has been debated not just in racing but in the world outside of racing.

Only on the race-day/night. It doesn't actually make the horse better. It merely just allows it to race to its potential.

It's a fine line but surely painkillers aren't in the same league as growth hormones etc?

I'm not condoning the use or presentation of a horse to race with the drug in its system, all I'm saying is it doesn't make the horse better.

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Brendan why do you think they are banned? if they do not enhance performance. and nobody is saying that it improves a horse or makes them run faster than they normally can , but allowing them to take away everyday pain that is part and parcel with performance horses is ENHANCING its performance.

I always wondered what would happen if a horse that has been given pain relief? Fall's during a race, injuring other horses and people.

When I have a sore back I do not play football, my thinking is that I will just hurt my back more, am I wrong in thinking this way?

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Originally Posted by Starship Captain

I always wondered what would happen if a horse that has been given pain relief? Fall's during a race, injuring other horses and people.

When I have a sore back I do not play football, my thinking is that I will just hurt my back more, am I wrong in thinking this way?

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No you are dead right and that is one of the reasons they are banned , if a horse has a problem that is masked by bute or other painkillers there is a very real danger of the horse having a catastrophic breakdown and bringing everyone down.

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Originally Posted by Starship Captain

I always wondered what would happen if a horse that has been given pain relief? Fall's during a race, injuring other horses and people.

When I have a sore back I do not play football, my thinking is that I will just hurt my back more, am I wrong in thinking this way?

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Many would though. Depends how tough you are. Professional athletes use painkillers regularly. Ask any Aussie quick or NRL player. I have used them myself and will again. I can see both sides of the argument and this is exactly where our laws have differed from USA previously. Does seem strange for it to be ok for human use but not animal.
On this similar topic I have heard of a procedure where a horse can have nerves severed in the fetlock to eliminate pain in the area and continue to race. I realize this is very taboo but has anyone heard of a similar thing?

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Originally Posted by Gtrain

Many would though. Depends how tough you are. Professional athletes use painkillers regularly. Ask any Aussie quick or NRL player. I have used them myself and will again. I can see both sides of the argument and this is exactly where our laws have differed from USA previously. Does seem strange for it to be ok for human use but not animal.
On this similar topic I have heard of a procedure where a horse can have nerves severed in the fetlock to eliminate pain in the area and continue to race. I realize this is very taboo but has anyone heard of a similar thing?

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The procedure you refer to is called a Nervectomy. I have heard of it being done in the bottom of the pastern to allow horses with navicular disease or pedal bone injuries to be free of pain but IMO to deaden the leg up as high as the fetlock would be extreme as the horse would have no feeling below the point of severance. The down side to this procedure is the danger of the horse doing further damage and also the nerve rejoins after about 2yrs so its not a long term fix.

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Originally Posted by ringman

Is that right ??? so if the horse is only capable of performing at 80% in pain and its given pain relief and performs at 95% that hasnt improved its performance had it run with the pain.

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It didn't increase the horses ultimate potential. It did not enhance performance - it only allowed potential to be realised.
If that is a performance enhancer than so is water and food. Without water and food you may only race at say 25% but with it you can race at 100%. So are water and food performance enhancers too?
Something that makes the horse go to 101% is a performance enhancer.
A horse could be given something on the Tuesday, that then allows it to race on Saturday. By the Saturday it is out of its system but do we do midweek testing at stables for drugs that allowed horses to reach potential?
No, there are two different classes of drugs - ones you can have at the stables and ones you can't because they are on different levels of the spectrum.

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Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

Brendan why do you think they are banned? if they do not enhance performance. and nobody is saying that it improves a horse or makes them run faster than they normally can , but allowing them to take away everyday pain that is part and parcel with performance horses is ENHANCING its performance.

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Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!

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Originally Posted by Danno

Jamie, not sure about your own grasp of the chemical struture of DMSO ( Dimenthyl Sulfoxide-- ( CH3 ) 2 SO. ) clinical tests have proven that at fairly high dosage rates it can have a significant effect on water retention, which can, obviously,have an effect on performance. However, having said that the amount found in Smokin' Up after the race was only slightly above the permissable threshold and in no way could have enhanced his performance even if it is ever proven that it was in his system during the race.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you were trying to make to Ringman, but DMNSO is banned for a reason.

Cheers,
Dan

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[VVV] Like a host of other such basically inocuous substances Dan, it is actually banned because it is an easier path to simply ban everything than it is for Administrative & Regulatory persons throughout Australia to get their individual and collective heads out of the respective arses & educate themselves as to the respective pro's and con's and take a practical view thereof. It's in the Too Hard basket.
The most unfortunate aspect of this of course is the very thing that our Draconian medication rules work to prevent...is the very thing that Harness Racing and for that matter all 3 Codes of racing desire...a wagering product that is capable of producing and maintaining consistent, handicappable form.
For example, currently a Trainer can score himself/herself a Bute positive 5-6-7+ days post administration despite the fact that pharmacologically as in pain relief wise it basically ceases working within 12 hours and it is completely shot to hell within 24hrs? Riddle me than, Batman.

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

It didn't increase the horses ultimate potential. It did not enhance performance - it only allowed potential to be realised.
If that is a performance enhancer than so is water and food. Without water and food you may only race at say 25% but with it you can race at 100%. So are water and food performance enhancers too?
Something that makes the horse go to 101% is a performance enhancer.
A horse could be given something on the Tuesday, that then allows it to race on Saturday. By the Saturday it is out of its system but do we do midweek testing at stables for drugs that allowed horses to reach potential?
No, there are two different classes of drugs - ones you can have at the stables and ones you can't because they are on different levels of the spectrum.


Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!

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[VVV] Well said Breno.

I would reply......... but i dont know what will be permitted after a couple of my posts with nothing untoward in them has been deleted.

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Originally Posted by triplev123

[VVV] Like a host of other such basically inocuous substances Dan, it is actually banned because it is an easier path to simply ban everything than it is for(1) Administrative & Regulatory persons throughout Australia to get their individual and collective heads out of the respective arses & educate themselves as to the respective pro's and con's and take a practical view thereof. (2)It's in the Too Hard basket.
The most unfortunate aspect of this of course is the very thing that our Draconian medication rules work to prevent...is the very thing that Harness Racing and for that matter all 3 Codes of racing desire...(3) a wagering product that is capable of producing and maintaining consistent, handicappable form.
For example, currently a Trainer can score himself/herself a Bute positive 5-6-7+ days post administration despite the fact that pharmacologically as in pain relief wise it basically ceases working within 12 hours and it is completely shot to hell within 24hrs? Riddle me than, Batman.

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(1) I really don't think the hard working, dedicated albiet often frustrated people administering our sport would, in the slightest, appreciate your desciption of them.

(2) If it's in the "too hard Basket", would this not mean the afformentioned administarors have looked at changing the rules on some therapeutic drugs but, as yet, cannot come up with a plan that works in a practicle way that the industry/sports participants can cope with?

(3) until it can be guaranteed that every time each horse races it is carrying the exact same doses of regulated drugs, then consistent form cannot be assured. Many of these drugs need to be administered 4 to 5 hours in advance of competition. In order for that to happen then each horse using regulated drugs needs to go to the track 4 to 5 hours before it's race. this may work at The Meadowlands where the majority of the runners are stabled on site but in the land of OZ where we are spread out over vast distances, the majority of horses are trained at private establishments and our game would not survive without hobby trainers, (who have a job to tend to) no wonder it's in the too hard basket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

It didn't increase the horses ultimate potential. It did not enhance performance - it only allowed potential to be realised.
If that is a performance enhancer than so is water and food. Without water and food you may only race at say 25% but with it you can race at 100%. So are water and food performance enhancers too?
Something that makes the horse go to 101% is a performance enhancer.
A horse could be given something on the Tuesday, that then allows it to race on Saturday. By the Saturday it is out of its system but do we do midweek testing at stables for drugs that allowed horses to reach potential?


Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!


No, there are two different classes of drugs - ones you can have at the stables and ones you can't because they are on different levels of the spectrum.


Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!

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Sorry to hear you are ailing Brendan ,but I don't think Ian Thorp would be looking over his shoulder for you, even if you was 100%. If you took the time to read my thread I made the point that pain killers can not improve a horses ability so to use your silly little analogy does not make sense (I think I have read others say the same). In your own research you have proven what I have been trying to explain to you , EFFECTIVENESS 1 power to produce results, 2 the state of being operative , 3 to produce as an effect, Brendan you can see from your own words that pain killers ENHANCE ones ability to perform.

Gentleman,

This is an interesting debate.

Jamie is not quite right it was in the too hard basket there is no doubt of that.

However there is a very genuine push to improve things internationally currently within the Thoroughbred code.

They are working towards detection screening limits to be set worldwide it is as you can imagine a massive task but there efforts appear to be a genuine.

The stumbling block in the past has been America where race day treatments of some therapeutic substances has been permitted on race days in some states, my information is that the Americans are more than open to move on this now.

Also there have been massive improvement in the ability to detect the parent drug in blood, some analysts say this this is the way of the future because in most cases if its in the blood it is still having an effect on the horse.

Some caution tho it will not happen tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by danno

(1) i really don't think the hard working, dedicated albiet often frustrated people administering our sport would, in the slightest, appreciate your desciption of them.

(2) if it's in the "too hard basket", would this not mean the afformentioned administarors have looked at changing the rules on some therapeutic drugs but, as yet, cannot come up with a plan that works in a practicle way that the industry/sports participants can cope with?

(3) until it can be guaranteed that every time each horse races it is carrying the exact same doses of regulated drugs, then consistent form cannot be assured. Many of these drugs need to be administered 4 to 5 hours in advance of competition. In order for that to happen then each horse using regulated drugs needs to go to the track 4 to 5 hours before it's race. This may work at the meadowlands where the majority of the runners are stabled on site but in the land of oz where we are spread out over vast distances, the majority of horses are trained at private establishments and our game would not survive without hobby trainers, (who have a job to tend to) no wonder it's in the too hard basket.

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well said danno

Correct me if im wrong, but didn't trainers in the past put in treatment sheets before they raced ( for bute etc ) . And if so why was this stopped. Any one know ? . Maybe this way it would be more of a level playing field. Or maybe it was dangerous for horses to race & not feel pain.

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Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

Sorry to hear you are ailing Brendan ,but I don't think Ian Thorp would be looking over his shoulder for you, even if you was 100%. If you took the time to read my thread I made the point that pain killers can not improve a horses ability so to use your silly little analogy does not make sense (I think I have read others say the same). In your own research you have proven what I have been trying to explain to you , EFFECTIVENESS 1 power to produce results, 2 the state of being operative , 3 to produce as an effect, Brendan you can see from your own words that pain killers ENHANCE ones ability to perform.

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Well said Dusty!!

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Originally Posted by peteboss4

Correct me if im wrong, but didn't trainers in the past put in treatment sheets before they raced ( for bute etc ) . And if so why was this stopped. Any one know ? . Maybe this way it would be more of a level playing field. Or maybe it was dangerous for horses to race & not feel pain.

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I think you'll find treatment sheets or treatment notification is used in the US, but I personally have never heard of them being used here.

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

It didn't increase the horses ultimate potential. It did not enhance performance - it only allowed potential to be realised.
If that is a performance enhancer than so is water and food. Without water and food you may only race at say 25% but with it you can race at 100%. So are water and food performance enhancers too?
Something that makes the horse go to 101% is a performance enhancer.
A horse could be given something on the Tuesday, that then allows it to race on Saturday. By the Saturday it is out of its system but do we do midweek testing at stables for drugs that allowed horses to reach potential?
No, there are two different classes of drugs - ones you can have at the stables and ones you can't because they are on different levels of the spectrum.


Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!

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Brenno, that food and water analogy won't stand up mate, food and water are essential to life, therapeutic drugs are not.

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Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

I think you'll find treatment sheets or treatment notification is used in the US, but I personally have never heard of them being used here.

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Treatment notification was mandatory in NSW years ago, not too sure what the situation is now. I think, if my memory serves me, they were put in place to assist in the
a) transparency of treatments and
B) instances where treatment ceased at prescibed ( eg 4 days for bute) time but a positive swab is encountered.

not going to swear by any of that, just relying on my not so perfect memory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danno

Treatment notification was mandatory in NSW years ago, not too sure what the situation is now. I think, if my memory serves me, they were put in place to assist in the
a) transparency of treatments and
B) instances where treatment ceased at prescibed ( eg 4 days for bute) time but a positive swab is encountered.

not going to swear by any of that, just relying on my not so perfect memory.

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That is pretty close to right.

Bill is your first name Ron ??????

Aspects of this thread remind me of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smgV...eature=related
Nothing quite like a Cello Player in a Marching Band.

Wasn't this thread about Lance walking away from the sport if SU lost the inter final ? It looks like it could be a while before he walks anywhere ! I'm surprized that the word "karma" hasn't come up yet !
But on a serious note I wish him a speedy recovery.

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Originally Posted by triplev123

Aspects of this thread remind me of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smgV...eature=related
Nothing quite like a Cello Player in a Marching Band.

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Brilliant deployment of the "funny hat " routine Jamie.

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Originally Posted by gutwagon

Wasn't this thread about Lance walking away from the sport if SU lost the inter final ? It looks like it could be a while before he walks anywhere ! I'm surprized that the word "karma" hasn't come up yet !
But on a serious note I wish him a speedy recovery.

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Just thinking would DMSO help him

As a trainer you are supposed to keep a diary of all treatment's etc for your horse and may be asked to produce it at the request of the steward's although i have never heard of this being asked for to check.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Brilliant deployment of the "funny hat " routine Jamie.

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[VVV] Seeking to follow in the footsteps of my comedic idol Danno.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKblP3_EkM0 :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

Pain relief doesn't improve performance. It merely allows peak performance to occur.
It only allows for ability to be realised, it doesn't increase ability.

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I 100% agree. :)

I have raced in a jurisdiction where DMSO is not prohibited at all. I drenched it, injected it, used it topically AT THE RACES (which was within the rules) and I will tell you now, it did not make a stitch of difference to my horse's performance and I tried it on several. I now almost soley only use it when sweating legs...

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Originally Posted by aussiebreno

It didn't increase the horses ultimate potential. It did not enhance performance - it only allowed potential to be realised.
If that is a performance enhancer than so is water and food. Without water and food you may only race at say 25% but with it you can race at 100%. So are water and food performance enhancers too?
Something that makes the horse go to 101% is a performance enhancer.
A horse could be given something on the Tuesday, that then allows it to race on Saturday. By the Saturday it is out of its system but do we do midweek testing at stables for drugs that allowed horses to reach potential?
No, there are two different classes of drugs - ones you can have at the stables and ones you can't because they are on different levels of the spectrum.


Enhance
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features

Painkillers do not make a horse greater or improve a horse. They merely allow the horses features to be met, not advanced.

Edit: I'm actually knocked up on painkillers right now with Swimmers ear and the flu. I don't think Ian Thorpe is going to be worried about me on my painkillers!

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Love your work :)

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Originally Posted by Danno

Brenno, that food and water analogy won't stand up mate, food and water are essential to life, therapeutic drugs are not.

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Without getting into a debate, because I don't, but an example of a non-essential aspect of racing that is allowed and would no doubt help performance is items such as shoeing. You will improve a horse (well probably 90%) by racing it with shoes. Only to their potential, not over. A horse racing on hay only for the most part would not race as good as a horse racing on grain and vitamins, minerals and electrolytes. Heck, jogging and fast working a horse mid week will mean it will peform better than one that spent 24 hours a day grazing in a paddock. IMHO a line needs to be drawn and it has - it is just too strict.

Wait till they start going 1:52 in every race at Menangle... perhaps the strict stance on theraputic substances will be eased a little then. The horses won't be lasting long otherwise.... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danno

(1) i really don't think the hard working, dedicated albiet often frustrated people administering our sport would, in the slightest, appreciate your desciption of them.

[vvv] i can guarentee you that amongst their number, those who have any idea at all with regard to this subject are few and far between.

(2) if it's in the "too hard basket", would this not mean the afformentioned administarors have looked at changing the rules on some therapeutic drugs but, as yet, cannot come up with a plan that works in a practicle way that the industry/sports participants can cope with?

[vvv] perhaps you're right. Despite such lists being freely available in other jurisdictions in the us & can publishing a simple list of thresholds and withdrawl times for various substances is probably beyond them.

(3) until it can be guaranteed that every time each horse races it is carrying the exact same doses of regulated drugs, then consistent form cannot be assured. Many of these drugs need to be administered 4 to 5 hours in advance of competition. In order for that to happen then each horse using regulated drugs needs to go to the track 4 to 5 hours before it's race. This may work at the meadowlands where the majority of the runners are stabled on site but in the land of oz where we are spread out over vast distances, the majority of horses are trained at private establishments and our game would not survive without hobby trainers, (who have a job to tend to) no wonder it's in the too hard basket.

[vvv] mate, we're now sending the best of today's horses down the road in 1:52's and subs at menangle and they're doing it week in week out and that's only going to ramp up in the next 12 months-2yrs+.

They're not going around richmond in 2:20 or the maitland showgrounds in 2:12, we're not in kansas anymore toto.

Just how long do you think we can reasonably expect them to physically hold together without a re-think of the therapeutic substances aspect of the current treatment rules?

a general burying heads in the sand & simply hoping it will all go away is not going to get it done.

as i've said many times before, what in blue blazes is there that's stopping us having on course vet administered lasix etc?

designated on course arrival 4hrs prior, lasix given by hrnsw vet.
all silent, all done. Other substances such as bute etc. would all placed on a very widely & very well publicised threshold basis ala tc02's.

in a somewhat timely manner for this subject/thread i see billy muscat's just scored a bute positive.
i will bet you london to a brick that whatever amount was in the horse, it was not at a level which was pharmacologically active. The bute test is bullshit, imo. It picks up trace amounts that do not add up to a knob of goat shit as far as their anti-inflamatory ability is concerned...the stuff is as good as water from the dam after about 12hrs and yet old mate's going to get grilled over it, regardless.
that's mindless. That's draconian. There has to be a better way.

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vvv

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Originally Posted by Flashing Red

Without getting into a debate, because I don't, but an example of a non-essential aspect of racing that is allowed and would no doubt help performance is items such as shoeing. You will improve a horse (well probably 90%) by racing it with shoes. Only to their potential, not over. A horse racing on hay only for the most part would not race as good as a horse racing on grain and vitamins, minerals and electrolytes. Heck, jogging and fast working a horse mid week will mean it will peform better than one that spent 24 hours a day grazing in a paddock. IMHO a line needs to be drawn and it has - it is just too strict.

Wait till they start going 1:52 in every race at Menangle... perhaps the strict stance on theraputic substances will be eased a little then. The horses won't be lasting long otherwise.... :)

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Nah Nah Nah..they can't do that then.
We are relying on your horses falling over to maintain our export industry...Horses that is!!!

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Originally Posted by triplev123

vvv

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I reckon you might have "missed the point" somewhat Jamie,or are you saying it should gloves off/open slather? The vast majority of people in this game want a level playing field and they'd like to think to the rules and the administration are working to assure this.

As i said in my earlier post if all horses arriving on course 4/5 hours before competition was a workable solution and regulated drugs administered then I'm sure everyone would be fine with that....everyone that could still participate that is.

I'll repeat myself for your benefit. The vast distances we are spread out over in Australia, combined with a large percentage of horses trained by hobbyists make on course arrival 4/5 hours before competition prohibitive. The recently repealed two hour limit caused many people to have their racing options restricted and hence reduced fields. What sort of affect do you reckon 4 to 5 hours is going to have?

It's one thing to quote whats fine in "other racing jurisdictions" but quite another to come up with workable solutions.

One thing that really annoys me is people who frequently whinge but seldom provide solutions, whingeing is cheap and easy.... solutions are are a tad harder to do.

Do us all a favour and conduct a little survey of your own, ask a reasonable cross section of trainers how they would cope with on course arrival times of 4 to 5 hours pre-competition.

If you do you might get an understanding of how the people who provide the racing product are getting on and how they reckon they might handle your "solution" in todays world!