I think it just goes to show people prefer to buy going horses if anything, breeding and buying yearling's isn't for everyone.
I think it just goes to show people prefer to buy going horses if anything, breeding and buying yearling's isn't for everyone.
Particularly bad? I think it shows that without Kiwi imports, they would be struggling big time. In fact you would think that it is only been Kiwi imports that have saved the product over there.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
Did the Sires Stakes series fall over because of lack of patronage from local owners?
The Big MileQuote:
Originally Posted by The Big Mile
In trying to prove your point, you have actually highlighted the major problem our industry is facing and which the panel tried to address - lack of foals being born in Aust!!!!
Forget everything the panel has put forward, and starting from scratch, how would you and others address this situation?
7800 being born @ 49% making it to the races. So 3822 make it to races. There is enough 2yo and 3yo racing imo; those fields always stand up and the smaller fields can be blamed on not as many make it to the races. So lets say the racing pool is made up of 4, 5 and 6yos. Thats 3822 x 3 = 11466 horses in our racing crop.
There is say 5 meetings a day x 8 races x 10horses x 363 days = 145200.
Horses divided by spots needing to be filled = The average 4, 5, 6yo only needs to be having 13 starts a year to fill our fields.
Those figures are guesstimates.
I don't believe the problem is lack of foals.
Retention of horses racing? Standardbreds are very capable of having 13 starts a year; a hell of a lot would double or triple; even quadruple this quota.
So why aren't horses racing? Not good enough? Lack of prizemoney? We need to program for lesser class of horses? Excusing the odd exception are there to many breeders breeding rubbish and then wondering why they can't break 2.10? Costs to high for horses once they are in training?
If you can't win races with horses in our market; or the ones winning aren't for sale, then of course you are going to go to NZ.
Are the influx of NZ horses ruining careers? Well programme more races for lesser class horses. Do we have the prizemoney for that? Maybe not, and if so then we have the right amount of horses as it is.
"Excusing the odd exception are there to many breeders breeding rubbish and then wondering why they can't break 2.10? "
This is a very real issue - the fact that breeders cant breed competitive horses at the dollar value they have to spend. As a result they are simply not breeding. In allowing open books we have greatly improved the breed but at a cost, and the gulf between the lesser bred ones and the better bred ones has increased dramatically causing people to just give it away.
Take a look at menangle next week - there are 3 races with only 8 starters, and 2 with 9 starters - why are they not full fields? They have the best prizemoney and the best handicapping conditions.
We need full, and competitive fields to maximise TAB turnover.
Irrespective of how you view any of the panel recommendations, the one irrefutable fact is the fact that our racing population is dwindling and each day there are fields that are not full, and that is something we need to address, and quickly.
Some of you might suggest we should give a subsidy to bringing NZ horses over... that might help things in the short term, but would not provide a sustainable long term solution. Like it or not, we do need to get more foals(and better bred ones) on the ground. Id like to know how we can do that.
Yes and $150 in credits for a mares lifetime is not going to stop this.Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
And they are part of the 51% that don't make it to races. What about retaining the 49% of those that do make it to the races?
That is very very true Mightymo. The Art Major's, Bettors Delight's, Mach Three's and Christian Cullen's are totally dominating. Many, many breeders cannot afford to breed to these sires but cannot afford not to.Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
Yes, particularly bad...particularly bad with bells on, a whistle, a novelty sound for the horn, a Fox tail on the aerial & a large rear-view mirror with a nice fuzzy purple Gonk attached. That's how bad. You're given to railing againts vested interests if, when and as you see them, you've made those calls with regard to various aspects of the Industry in the past...and good for you by the way. Well, in WA, under pressure from a small group of big $ spending vested interests in that part of the world, a combination of both active and passive lack of intent on behalf of WA Administration saw to it that...rather than $$$ being directed to where it would have done more longer term good by way of bolstering a strong local breeding Industry (ala the NSW Breeders Challenge system, VicBred & so on)...the WA Breeding Industry went to Hell in a hand-cart. Like it or not, those are the facts of the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Mile
Painting the rafts of ready mades from NZ as though they rode over the hill as the saviours of WA Harness Racing is akin to admiration shown for the bandages worn by someone that quite intentionally shot themselves in the foot.
Breno - stop complaining and actually add something constructive. you are in charge. What are you going to do to improve the situation....give us something usefulQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
I'll say it once again and I'll KEEP ON SAYING IT until those in the driver's seat tune in and understand.
In 2009/2010 season we produced just under 5,200 live foals here in Australia. Approximately 2,600 of those were fillies who will duly get a shot at 6.6% of the total races carded, all but ensuring that they're either not going to be tried or if they are then they'll be pushing shit up hill to be viable racing propositions.
Until such time as we make BETTER USE OF HALF OF THE FOALS WERE ARE ALREADY PRODUCING instead of trying to breed another 500-1000-1500 more foals than we are at present...and then NEGLECTING 250-500-750 OF THOSE IN THE VERY SAME FASHION AS WE CURRENTLY NEGLECT HALF OF THE FOALS WE PRODUCE...then any efforts to increase foal numbers is seemingly just for the sake of doing so. All we will effectively do is INCREASE THE APPALLING LEVEL OF WASTAGE/LACK OF RACING OPPORTUNITIES that we currently preside over.
As I said before...LET THE FILLIES THAT WE BREED NOW FILL THE FIELDS.
WRITE THE GOD DAMNED RACES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I share similar views Triple v, yet when this was brought up with various state programmers they suggest that on many occasions when they do program fillies/mares only races, they dont receive enough noms. my response was that they should simply program them and race them anyway, and eventually trainers will see them and put their fillies and mares in
It is constructive. If there was no opposition to this idea it would go ahead plain sailing the sport would be poorer for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
I've said I have no problem with the other 34.5 pages of the panels report.
I've said breeders have got to want to do it. At the moment the sport is on its market equilbrium. There is no 'problem' with not enough foals. Yes it would be great if there was more; but that means more races and thus prizemoney comes to a halt; even decreases. If there comes a point fields aren't being met then that means there is more oppurtunities to win races and thus breeding will increase. There is no problem with dwindling foal numbers. Increasing foal numbers will just add to losses.
Another thing I just put forward. Retention of horses. There are enough foals to starters to fill fields. In fact we should have a surplus. Add in all the Imports and we'd have many more meetings. But why aren't the foals to starters continually racing? Where are they going? I'm not going to be like the breeders panel and come up with an answer without actually knowing. My theories are in the above post with question marks next to them.
Also by me not offering something up that suits you. It's like me coming up with an idea "I don't think I should have to pay for hot dogs and beer when I go to the trots" I know I'll stand at the gate and collect $2 off everybody that comes in. That is a ridiculous idea on my behalf. But I don't care that its riduculous; I am going to go ahead with it anyway until someones offers up a better idea. That is exactly what you are doing.
Have you not seen the ideas put forward by mango, VVV and others?
Do a deal. I'll admit I can't come with a better idea. And you admit the current idea is ridiculous?
I see tripleVs idea with fillies/mares racing can help my horse retention theory.
"There is no 'problem' with not enough foals. Yes it would be great if there was more; but that means more races and thus prizemoney comes to a halt; even decreases. If there comes a point fields aren't being met then that means there is more oppurtunities to win races and thus breeding will increase. There is no problem with dwindling foal numbers. Increasing foal numbers will just add to losses. "
What a load of absolute nonsense - you clearly have absolutely no understanding of how the industry is funded. i am speechless.
The same prizemoney gets paid out in a field of 8 starters as it does in a field of 12 starters, however, the turnover is siginificantly greater and so the returns to the industry is significantly greater and this leads to increased prizemoney.
This has nothing to do with any panel. this is just basic FACTS
Ummmmm, if 8 races becomes 9 races that is 1 more race for prizemoney. Common sense mightymo.
EDIT: In the 5 years that fields drops before the increasing foals come in yeah TAB funding may drop by say 20%. If the sport can't cover that then we are in more trouble then the Bali 9
A whole new race is going to do more for turnover than 2 more horses being in a race.
By the way, a long time internet 'truth' has just been found out as fallacy.
http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...2730823291.jpg
If you are mightymo you can unsee things. You have done a great job of seemingly ignoring things from the start of the thread simply because they don't agree with your side of the discussion.
@aussiebreno you think we dont need to breed more foals. If the numbers keep droping it will no longer be viable for the better quality US stallions to come down under( Aus & NZ ) and that would be a disaster for our breed.
Does anyone know if nz foal numbers are also droping ?
aussiebreno you have said you don't breed or own horses, could you tell us what your involvement in the sport is ? I'm not having a go at you , I just want to better understand your position and views.
Maybe the pannel could have looked into why so many foals don't make it to the track ? It cant just be because they are fillies or not good enough. I have known many people who never try horses, just leave them in the padock, mostly due to training costs ect.
Hello Gutwagon, I see your point about dwindling foal numbers, however, with the present exchange rate and unlimited books in Oz/NZ, I would suspect that the Southern Hemisphere provides income shuttle stallion owners could ill afford to lose. I feel we are a long way off reversing the present trend that sees almost all of the top US studs available down under.
I would also like to express some sympathy for Mighty Mo through this forum. I feel that he is perhaps being criticized a bit unnecessarily for making an effort to improve the industry. The fact that he is present on this forum should be acknowledged, as I'm sure other members of the panel are not as accessible as he has made himself and his views. I hope he has a thick skin and can take some of the valid points that have been made by many contributers to the thread. Personally, I don't like the idea of the credits scheme. I think any benefits would be insignificant, could sustain inefficient areas of the industry and not justify the poor PR and potential loss of owners that would come with the import tax hike. However, it is an idea and ideas in this industry should be welcomed and considered. Through reading several posts I have been convinced of the importance of programming more fillies and mares races. I would start by challenging HRV on this point... If they say it can't be justified due to insufficient field nom's I would challenge them on their recent trotting enhancements which will subsidize a sector of the industry in the interests of reaping a long term benefit - Same principle surely!
All State bodies need to programme more fillies and mares races regardless of field size's to promote to everyone that their is races for the mare's so people will buy and race on the female's longer
it's no good saying we programmed them and no-one turned up it takes time you just can't go and get them out of the paddock and race them we have to change people's thought's on fillies and mares racing.
Hi GutwagonQuote:
Originally Posted by gutwagon
Mare's served in N.Z over the last 10 yrs have averaged around 4200 with last year being there lowest out of the 10 yrs at 3500.
Mightymo,Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
That is the answer you always get, we tried it and the races didn't stand up. I'm sure that is true.
I think that can be overcome if a long term approach is adopted. It is no good leaving individual clubs to program these races in isolation other wise you get the situation where Menangle may program a C0 mares on Tuesday and Penrith program the same on Thursday. Neither race stands up.
IMO, there needs to be certainty so that owners and trainers know with certainty that there will be a C0/C1 mares at Menangle every 2nd Tuesday and a C2/C3 on every other week. On the weeks that Menangle has a C0/C1, Penrith has a C2/C3 and vice versa. These races need to be guaranteed. This is only an example, but the philosophy needs to be developed in each state - more than that, in each region of each state. It needs to be widely publicised so that everyone is aware of it.
Mightymo, as you will have read here, I have doubts about the degree of benefit that the mares breeding credt scheme will deliver and I think the greatest opportunity, at little or no cost, is to fix this situation whereby mares have limited racing careers. Your proposal makes reference to it but I would like to see some more specific recommendations.
Thanks for that info mango.
It seems clear that we need to encourage breeders/owners to race and keep racing their fillies/mares. I know that adding more mares races to the program wont fix the problem overnight but we must start increasing them now.
I own a 4yo mare, it was fine as a 2 and 3yo she could just race mostly against fillies, now at 4 she has to race the boys. In Vic mares can race in open sex races and drop 1 class (eg c3 mare can go in c2 mixed sex race) this helps but as you move up classes it gets much harder. What incentive is there for me to keep racing her ?
How about a bonus for a mare if she beats the males, what about discounts for fillies in the vicbred and breeders crown series ? Discounts on foal registration for fillies ?
All the big money series are for 2 & 3yo horses. What about the 4 to 8yo ones. We need more for them, like the Tontine series. Plenty of horses retire not because of bad form but lack of opportunity. The longer an owner can keep racing and getting a return from their horses the better for the industry.
Using the underutilized compoment of the existing population would make the most sence to me to boost the racing population, which is the critical conpoment of the equation not foal numbers actually.
Will take a little time, but not much time in comparison to reaping the benefits of a boosted foal population. Why not program more mares races but with a different prizemoney split then exists now, ie less to the winner, more money down the line? More opportunities for more individual mares to pay their way should lead to more racing and then finding their way to stud.
What about $1000 say to the highest placed filly/mareQuote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
A bonus proportional to the value of the race to highest placed filly or mare in mixed races if they finish better then mid field would have merit. We would want to reward those performances that have merit, not reward a last place finish by the only female in the field type performance, in ordinary races at least..
The question would be though where does the money come from?
I don't see any need to complicate the issue. Authorities need to be able to plan and budget for any reform and convoluted stake payment scenarios are a nightmare. We currently have races for fillies and mares. Just program more of them!
Well put Termite
How do we get you on the panel, all this talk about bonuses and conditions are complicated nonsense, program more fillies and mares races from 2-4 yld make racing a 2-4 a priority for both sex's (50% of owners have a filly or mare so there shouldn't be much of an argument about it) If there is more juvenile racing it would make them more valuable commodity at the sales if you wanted to race and it wouldn't matter so much if it was a colt or filly if they get a fare suck of the lollypop.
[QUOTE=gutwagon;8863]@aussiebreno you think we dont need to breed more foals. If the numbers keep droping it will no longer be viable for the better quality US stallions to come down under( Aus & NZ ) and that would be a disaster for our breed. A shop doesn't stock 1000 cartons of milk if only 300 of them will get sold. Foals are getting bred at the demand; in fact at a surplus to the demand (see my numbers above where each horse who gets to the races need 13 starts a year). The problem isn't foal numbers but rather horse retention. Of course we would love the game to be bigger; but the simple fact of life is it isn't a mainstream sport; we are never (in the current popularity etc) going to get turnover in the billions; prizemoney in the billions and foals bred in the tens of thousands etc. If there was more horse retention then the racing fields and no of meetings could increase. Then the next problem would foal numbers (if they were to still stay low but they would likely increase as demand for foals would increase). But at the moment the problem isn't foal numbers.
Does anyone know if nz foal numbers are also droping ? per mango :)
aussiebreno you have said you don't breed or own horses, could you tell us what your involvement in the sport is ? I'm not having a go at you , I just want to better understand your position and views. No involvment personally. Relatives both side of the family train/own but ironically my mother and father have zilch involvement. I have no bias towards anything; just doing what is right.
Maybe the pannel could have looked into why so many foals don't make it to the track ? It cant just be because they are fillies or not good enough. I have known many people who never try horses, just leave them in the padock, mostly due to training costs ect.Yep 51% seems high. But of the 49% that do make it to the races they should easily fill the fields out. All about horse retention; not the foal no being born imo. Of which VVV and others have came up with good ideas.[/QUOTE]
Cheers Gutwagon.
Well there you go; had not heard the term fare suck before today. Now heard it twice. Although the other time I heard it it was said fair suck of the dim simQuote:
Originally Posted by nat
LOL Aussie bit of a typo error
Hi Aussiebreno
Mare's served in n.z are correct in my former post as i was e-mailed the list of mare's served over the last 10yrs by a respected breeder who is high up in the breeding industry in n.z, i was over there in early april and was discussing this topic with them and then a month later i recieved the service chart.
Hi Aussiebreno
I just found the e-mail i was sent, as per certificate's lodged with HRNZ.
00/01 - 4296
01/02 - 4879
02/03 - 4856
03/04 - 4676
04/05 - 4226
05/06 - 4071
06/07 - 4057
07/08 - 4266
08/09 - 3867
09/10 - 4015
10/11 - 3500
There's been 46709 mare's served in 11yrs giving an average of 4246 mare's served per year.
Yeah mango, wasnt disputing. Is there a standout reason for just 3500 last season? That is a big drop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
WOW!!!
That is a very astute observation on your part Breno :):)
Do you still think declining foals isnt a problem????
[VVV] G'day Mightymo. Mate, I am so sick to death of that attitude...we program them but the races don't stand up so we don't program them. I am sick to death of these Bozos envoking the Chicken & Egg defence. I suggested the very same thing at the Panel meeting held at Menangle and I got the well worn, totally expected response from a couple of people I thought would be on side but were apparently not..."the TAB agreement prevents us from going with less than full fields".Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
Well, my view is not pretty, it is not particularly palatable but the time is nigh that we take a more militant attitude.
I say $%&@ the TAB's. $%&@ them all right down to their potted Ficus & Happy Plants. $%&@ their views on full fields. The States need to grow some Cojones right here, right now and they need to stand up and do what we all know is the right thing to do...rather than allowing the Industry to remain little more than a Puppet of the short-sighted bean counting SOB's in offices somewhere in Ultimo. Card the God damned races people and then run them with whomever fronts up and drops their names into the box, regardless if they have full fields or not, and persist in doing so beyond a few weeks or a month or two. They'll get the noms & the full fields and they'll get them in very short order.
Was just talking to a mate of mine and he raised the point that it is mandated that Breeders Crown Heats throughout Australia are run with whomever noms, regardless of numbers.
Now why is it that, at least in the short term, something of a similar program could not be instituted so as to foster more fillies & mares only races? Surely it can't be that God damned difficult?
Its NZ and the drop in the last season is exaggerated to the prior 10 seasons. Hence my query to Mango; hope he has an answer. It probably has to be a dramatic change. Which now Lance has said below Govt stopped funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by roosters
That has nothing to do with declining foals in Aust over a period of time. You may as well say the increase in pig numbers in Mozambique will result in an increase in chicken numbers in Antartica.
My figures show it isn't declining foal numbers rather horse retention.
VVV and others have put up great ideas to retain horses.
////thread
LOL - it must be play time at kinder. Do they let you you use the computers instead of playing in the sandpit??Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Yeah, so I take it you have nothing constructive to add?