From Today's Bendigo Advertiser
http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/...-fixing/?cs=80
Printable View
From Today's Bendigo Advertiser
http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/...-fixing/?cs=80
Fractional odds continues to die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaptor
Sorry, but I can't see the conga line forming is dancing to a happy harness racing new year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaptor
Leopards don't change their spots. What has come out of this story is the lengths of desperation some people will go to just to win a few hundred bucks.
As long-deceased trainer mate of mine once said to me when I was questioning why a colleague had done something so pathetically silly and ruined his career: "You can't educate mugs!"
The needy and the greedy continue to tarnish our game.
1000% correct, the people who do these things are VERY VERY rarely innocents who have made a mistake, they are the people who are pushing the boundaries at every possible opportunity. And they are collectively ruining the game for the 95% of honest people....shits me big time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Showgrounds
If it is true that Leopards don't change their spots as Trev suggests, then I fear Dan that the boundary pushers percentage could be as high as 25%, maybe more. If you look at the participants in some fields (in Vic) you can sometimes see more than 25% of them have been suspended at one time or another for serious infringements and sadly there are others one merely suspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Among those I cannot help but suspect are those who maintain working relationships with known offenders.
Fans of harness racing cannot help but feel gutted by recent events/news
I can understand the powers that be, might wish that these stories do not get much coverage, for I would hate to be the one responsible for damage control
It is a good thing Aussies are crazy gamblers, mostly without much study and thought - it is racing's saving grace
I was just thinking I forgot to buy a Powerball ticket for tonight's jackpot - what would be the likelihood of anyone wanting to if we found out that the random draw was not on the up and up
ps Sadly IMO this has seriously tarnished the achievements of horses like Menin Gate and Milly Perez
I am afraid that Larry Eastman has done serious damage to not only his reputation but also the industry for even though the average punter may not even read about it, the honest participants can only take so much
We could talk about integrity in general without ever naming an offender but did they ever think about others in the industry when they chose to break the rules
Strongly agree. No longer can we say 99% or 95% are doing the right thing. In addition to the participants in trouble there are participants who flew under my radar that are supporting the wrongdoers on social media. They could be doing the right thing themselves but that support for wrong doers leaves a sour taste in your mouth. Makes me wonder why seemingly clean participants aren't in support of a clean industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
http://www.harnessracingforum.com/im...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Messenger http://www.harnessracingforum.com/im...post-right.png If it is true that Leopards don't change their spots as Trev suggests, then I fear Dan that the boundary pushers percentage could be as high as 25%, maybe more. If you look at the participants in some fields (in Vic) you can sometimes see more than 25% of them have been suspended at one time or another for serious infringements and sadly there are others one merely suspects.
Among those I cannot help but suspect are those who maintain working relationships with known offenders.
Fans of harness racing cannot help but feel gutted by recent events/news
I can understand the powers that be, might wish that these stories do not get much coverage, for I would hate to be the one responsible for damage control
It is a good thing Aussies are crazy gamblers, mostly without much study and thought - it is racing's saving grace
I was just thinking I forgot to buy a Powerball ticket for tonight's jackpot - what would be the likelihood of anyone wanting to if we found out that the random draw was not on the up and up
ps Sadly IMO this has seriously tarnished the achievements of horses like Menin Gate and Milly Perez
http://www.harnessracingforum.com/im...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by aussiebreno http://www.harnessracingforum.com/im...post-right.png
Strongly agree. No longer can we say 99% or 95% are doing the right thing. In addition to the participants in trouble their are participants who flew under my radar that are supporting the wrongdoers on social media. They could be doing the right thing themselves but that support for wrong doers leaves a sour taste in your mouth. Makes me wonder why seemingly clean participants aren't in support of a clean industry.
Agree with both posts. Am leaning toward the higher percentage as well unfortunately. If you combine what both Kev and Breno have said with reduced participation rates, that is which participants have walked away, unfortunately the maths means it's no longer 99 or 95%
Re Kev's - If you look at the participants in some fields (in Vic) you can sometimes see more than 25% of them have been suspended at one time or another for serious infringements.
One participant's view - At home you do the form for a race you're in. All good. In the parade ring you're checking out the colours then it dawns on you. In a 9 horse field six of the horses are trained or driven by convicted, TCO2 or serious offenders. Sure, there's one stable that has two runners but through your eyes you're now only seeing red. That sour taste doesn't go near describing it. What's the percentage there?
Another view, another race day - Ensuring consistent form you finish down the track. Better luck next time, you're used to that. BUT what we don't need is one of the number of convicted TCO2 trainers "consoling" us with "you guys should win a race" What immediately springs to mind?
That racing rule that controls your fists.
What springs to mind right now, the referee's count - one, two, three and you're out, gone forever!
HRV clearly think people can change as Glenn Douglas has gone from this
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/harness-...4f174711618498
To being a mentor for Bendigo Training Centre students
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=33702
I love the 1,2,3 count and you're out
I would go a little tougher
If the first count/offence is major MAJOR then you get 10yrs
Two MAJOR offences and you do not get a third chance
I continue to be saddened by the suspicions I have about certain stables coming true. The old story, if it seems too good to be true it's probably not true. Nobody's luck extends to the point whereby every horse they present to the races win or are very competitive however some trainers enjoy this incredible luck. These trainers always seem to make it into steward reports under the headings of positive swabs. Owners support these trainers who have incredible lucky runs. Every owner wants to see their horses win good races. Without owners trainers cant survive. Hence my solution to the epidemic of trainers using illicit substances on horses to improve performance, to attract owners and increase their numbers: Ban the horse which returns a positive swab for 12 months. Owners with a nice 2 year old wont send the horse to a trainer under suspicion. Imagine the owners nightmares while awaiting the results of swabs taken from their horse. Nightmares such as every time they look out in their yard and see a horse they spent good money on running around the paddock unable to race for 12 months, every time they turn on sky racing a see a horse win a big race that their horse beat in a trial and the worst of all - facing their friends.
Some good points there Gumnut. Taking something out of the hip pocket always hurts, made even worse if your uninjured best horse is not racing for a period of time.
Interesting thoughts Danny O'Brien (real name?)
Such a measure could of course deter some people from ownership
I don't think it could ever happen because it would end up with endless litigation by owners against trainers and authorities
There is also possibly a greater risk of outsider nobbling - the unscrupulous would have a large window in which to produce a positive in some talented opposition because they know that a positive will put them out for a year
This is reflective of how much the industry relies on the big names. I live in Ararat, half hour from "the Gap'. I have had harness horses all my life. My father had harness racing horses and now my son Leroy is a licensed trainer and driver. I apologise for having to introduce myself but I would expect a person commenting on local harness racing to be aware of the local participants.
The comments you made are relevant but what is new. People are being deterred from owning a harness horse due to the poor public impression currently. Owners and trainers are involved in litigation, Luke McCarthy and my name sake from the gallopers. Nobling is something out of ongoing stewards inquiries for as long as racing has been. First line of defence, "someone got to my horse". "Must have been the feed" etc. I am proposing something new to the industry. Anyone have a better suggestion?
I apologise for hijacking Larry's post. I am new to this caper and would have started a new post if I knew how. Banning horses and trainers is something I am passionate about and will continue to use any available forum to rally support for this.
Don't get your nickers in a knot Danny. I just thought the fact that you have an infamous namesake rather funny in relation to this matter.
Why do I need to know all the local participants to have an opinion?
A while back I kept a database of every trainer that won in Victoria so no doubt I have recorded the O'Brien name many times
Thankfully we do not need to know the length and breadth of every subject we talk about in life
Did you know me before you recently discovered this forum?
If you don't think I should be running this forum that is fair enough but stick with us and just like me - you might find yourself running the forum if everybody leaves just after you joined LOL
Now that I have got that off my chest lets try again
Let's also listen to everyone from those new to the sport this week to the rusted on
You have certainly done nothing wrong by putting your post in the Larry thread and if you want to start a new thread in future you just click on Post New Thread
Believe me I too have decried people supporting known offenders. (just this week in fact)
You say my comments are relevant but not new - that does not make them wrong either
How are you going to get newbies into syndicates if down the track they find their horse suspended for 12 months for something they did not do
Imagine the word of mouth recommendation they are going to give the industry
As I said in post 11, I am all for slamming the offender as the way forward
Nobbling will always be a defence but my devious mind thinks that under your system it could actually come back in vogue as criminal types, who would do anything to get an edge, would see the reward as not just seeing the opposition forced to change stable BUT eliminated for 12 months
I am going to warble on a bit now
I do not know a lot of people in the industry, maybe you need to have the time and inclination to be a participant for that to happen, for other than on this forum, I do not find harness people to be particularly friendly. I am a talker despite being pretty deaf and I will initiate conversations when people at least make eye contact. I have only never had three people initiate any conversation with me at any harness meeting I have ever attended - 2 chaps sitting by the coffee and donut outlet at Melton and we talked about how good the fishing is up here (after they told me the coffee lady would be back in a minute). The other was a HRV employee who initiated conversation after a David Martin briefing at Stawell where I had a bit to say. That is from hundreds of meetings attended (90% of the time on my own)
Maybe I will have to try wearing deodorant or stop looking so scary - that thing on the side of my head is only a cochlear - I am not Herman Munster ;)
New Year's Resolution suggestion for all the Harness Racing industry - talk to someone you do not know at every meeting you attend. What do you think?
Hey Kev..You want me to put that post in the "introduce yourself" board??!!!!!
Merry Christmas
This iris from another website.
"Larry Eastman, a legend of Victorian harness racing who just last year was awarded a Harness Racing Australia Meritorious Award, was charged by police in a corruption case involving illegal stomach tubing of horses and gambling".
Me: Should these awards be taken off him I think the answer is yes and barred for life.
Yeah - I think you would make a good sole moderator :)Quote:
Originally Posted by teecee
and Merry Christmas everyone :p
my opinion is......abso-bloody-lutely.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Hando
Welcome to forum. I have heard of both you and Leroy despite not watching many races from South-west Victoria. I would have thought someone half hour away from you with over 5500 posts would have known too lol. In the past he has also questioned things like a towns name being made up so I wouldn't take any offence Danny.Quote:
Originally Posted by gumnut
I like the idea of banning horses for 12 months. In the past I've been against it because you can be punishing innocent owners, but we've seen Essendon Bombers sit out a year and Melbourne Storm been stripped of premierships when it wasn't the players faults. They've still gained from the cheating, so need to cop the punishment. 12 months over a career isn't extreme, still plenty of time to win races and by time you have spell and get back in training its only really about 6months off anyway. A lot of owners would have to have an inkling what their trainers are up to so I think this would be a good rule.
I don't think the word of mouth with owners is going great at the moment Kevin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
So currently rivals aren't getting at horses the days before a race when it is confirmed certainty they are racing against a rival horse, but they will get at it because there is a possibility sometime in the next 12 months it may be a rival?
Thanks Brendan, you're the best - I think I should leave it to you LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
I think Gumnut's idea has some benefits, but I reckon it should be used in addition to other deterrents, imagine the situation where you have a horse that has extremely limited ability ( and there are plenty of them around), trainer loads the horse up for one big go at winning a race it was probably never going to win, horse wins and is retired...no punishment for the owner, just rewards.
Despite what I have already written, I believe a period of disqualification for the horse will reduce the ocurrance of "pretend trainers", the all too familiar situation where an about to be disqualified trainer transfers all the horses to a mate or family member, why? because the owners of the other horses in "the barn" don't want to be the next to have their horse DQ'd and see the risk is quite high.
Plus of course we do need stronger and more consistent deterrents for licensees , and some of the penalties being handed out in Victoria appear to be very lenient compared to elsewhere at the moment and I personally believe NSW could be crank their penalties up a notch or 2 on what they have already done.
Also while I'm on my soap box, the media have a case to answer in all this, how many time have we seen various members of the media fawning over "fallen stars" on their return from disqualification as if nothing has happened, that makes the honest people sick to the guts.
Welcome to the forum Danny, the more trainers/ drivers perspectives we get on this forum the more balanced the debate in my humble opinion.
cheers,
Danno
AgreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Danno
http://www.harnessracingforum.com/im...ons/icon14.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Danno
I could be repeating myself but we do stand horses down for hormones.
The debate has come up in wider circles before and the new, naïve syndicate member argument came to the fore. Pretty sure, and from my perspective it wasn't coincidental, it was pre yearling sales time. One could have taken the position it was more about yearling sales than protecting the newbies. I'd be happy to not introduce a stand down if those breeders/vendors agreed to not sell their yearlings to a known cheat or a syndicate manager who has sent horses to a cheat. Yep, a fantasy.
I realise we need new owners, syndicates, but as for their naivety(?) Would there be many people interested in going into a race horse who hadn't come across the Moody, O'B, Kav or even Essendon F C stories? And they would think it couldn't happen in harness racing?
I would wonder about a newbie owner's character if clean racing put them off ownership.
Whether it be horse stand down or another more severe deterrent, as one of the many owners that pays for quite a bit more than 1/20th of one horse's hoof (with no disrespect to any syndicate members) I'd hope I would be looked out for as much as member 1/20th. Some may have a view that the many owners like me should be looked out for more?
And welcome to the forum Gumnut.
I remember this, in my neck of the woods http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=33637
Well done Leroy http://www.harnessracingforum.com/im...ons/icon14.png
Thank you for your kind comments.
At least one thing hsas come out of this discussion, Kevin and I dont know each other.
I have been a keen reader of this forum for a long time now. I recognise all the people who have taken time out to add their opinion and look forward to reading this forum daily. I have not joined in the conversations because I knew I would get myself into strife with my big mouth. One thing is I will not apologise for the stance I take against cheats in this industry. I could not agree more with Dan. The fallen stars. Take the Bendigo stable, ( and I loved the remark Kevin made about this stable being in form and would be able to afford to fill in the pit, or whatever the wording was), HRV representatives run to interview him pre race and announce him as the funniest man in harness racing. He may well be but wait till people forget about his recent brush with authorities. I fail to see anything funny about what he was involved in. I agree that HRV need to take a firmer stance. Their raceapacer program has a trainer which has a forecoming hearing regarding the use of a very serious drug. Wonder what will happen if this trainer gets found guilty and only receives a fine. Take the other western district trainer who earlier in the year had a positive to arsenic and went again for giving a horse an illicit substance to trial. Fined due to his good record. Look I could go on and on but really who that has the power to change is listening.
On a lighter note, dont be too hard on yourself Kevin. Harness racing people probably dont approach you because some would not know the device you have on the side of your head is to assist hearing, they might think it is a camera and microphone, or even a device to control a drone.
I really enjoy this forum and I would like to wish everyone a merry Christmas and a rewarding new year.
And a merry Christmas to you Danny, and to all here.
In fairness to Kev, he is a moderator, love them or hate them. Like umpiring or stewarding, moderating isn't on my bucket list. I too wondered about Danny O'Brien posting in a substance related thread.
And I've had my arguments and run ins with Kev :D but I'd be gone if I had to be an expert or historian on local participants to be on here. Four + decades in the sport, two + in northern Vic/Goulburn Valley and I still wouldn't know some prominent local names.
We don't mind some spirited debate, at times I think we yearn for it :) but Breno, that 5500 post jibe might have been borderline below the belt.
Anyway, any chance of Leroy saying g'day Danny? I guess he's more inclined toward twitter and face book if he's that way inclined at all. Wouldn't be expecting anything controversial from him, just how his team's going, his aspirations, what he's enthusiastic about, anything like that. Or dad might like to tell us a bit more about him, without embarrassing him :) It may even give him a bit of exposure.
Thanks Wayne however the bird has flown. Leroy is walking away from the sport for the time being. In his words "its just too hard". Maybe why I am a little emotional about the industry and the way it is heading. I gave my license up for the same reason, however will need to look at getting it back to sort the paddock full of horses out before retiring altogether. Leroy has had a good introduction into the sport working with leading stables. Due to not being a big name in the industry he was not given the driving opportunities he thoroughly deserved in my biased opinion. This led to him not believing in himself as a driver and employing others to complete this chore on many occassions. As for training he trained 13 individual winners last year including the Ararat trotters cup, the home bred Vicbred final for 2 year old fillies and the ladyship in Adelaide. The stable earned over $100000 last year in stakemoney,with bonuse's included. He was over the moon to train his first metropolitan winner, which he also drove, only to have his winners interview cut short by the commentator announcing a protest. One of the stables who like winning everything, (including trials if the recent report regarding Josh Aitken is correct) protested. Thats his right to protest and the stewards right to give Aitken a warning for wasting their time. Little things like this get to me. The stable was not getting a fair go as far as i was concerned so I wrote to the minister of sport, the chairman of stewards and the CEO. In hindsight a silly idea. As far as exposure, we work horse for a little more then what it costs us. All the horses given to the stable to train have had their issues or are poorly bred. We introduce many owners to this sport. The owners are then poached by leading stables and the owners drift away. We purchased a horse at the Shepparton sale intending to sell shares. We avertised the horses shares on facebook only to receive a phone call from a HRV representative telling Leroy to take down the post as he does not have a license to syndicate horses. We were not syndicating as such, just looking for partners. As I said; "its just too hard". - anyone want to buy a horse.
Well said Danny, there are a lot on your side don't worry but quite a few sit on the fence unfortunately and are keyboard warriors of the highest order. But I am convinced (almost) that changes will be made once authorities go to Thailand specifically Bangkok and buy a new set of skin tone large balls....cheap at $5 grand :) and I know that comment will pass the "policy" test.
Dont worry Kev, I sometimes used to go to the races on my own and people avoided me as well especially at GP on a cold Tuesday night, someone once told me it was the cologne I wore (old spice).....
Danny as you mentioned, I am in the market for a pacer but it must be faster than my slowest horse......
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumnut
Happy you didn't sell Danny? Well done!
He was very impressive Wayne (& Danny). Horsham is not a super quick track (although Tk Rec lowered to 1.53 today) so for a 2yo having its first start to death seat and rate 1.55.9 is pretty special
Pretty sure Danny and Leroy are two for two out of the Shepparton Mixed Stock Sales and a timely reminder :-
Sale O Sale O http://www.sheppartonhrc.com.au/news.php?id=1089 Entries close for this year's May 15 with the sale set down for July 15.
Following on from the court case the Eastman crew have now been hit with charges by the stewards
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=37132