Reply With QuoteYou are correct on the standards of proof. But I am the first to admit that I am not 100% sure how this will all play out in a NZ Court, I'm afraid.
Originally Posted by teecee
[VVV] There's the hook Teecee. Nobody has had a day in Court.
They've had their day before the JCA. The JCA is NOT a Court although it appears the precedent obsessed boffins who apparently inhabit its halls may periodically kid themselves into thinking otherwise.
The difference lies in the respective burdens of proof required.
The JCA's and for that matter the Australian regulatory system is roughly equivalent to that of a Civil Court...ie. the balance of probabilities....whereas a Criminal Court requires much more i.e. it requires beyond reasonable doubt. Given the judgement that I've read and attempted to understand and if the NZ Court system is basically equivalent to that of our own, I think there's a very good chance Lance & Co. will get this decision thrown out.
Beers on me when next you're in Oz if I am wrong. Flashing would have a better grip on the respective burdens of proof required. Does that sound about right Tahn?
You are correct on the standards of proof. But I am the first to admit that I am not 100% sure how this will all play out in a NZ Court, I'm afraid.
It will be a bad day for Harness Racing if it goes all the way to courts. There are not to many trainers that don't use DMSO in one way or another particuly after a hard run in your horse needs to back up, I say for the sake of the sport let it go or we will spend the rest of our lives fighting swabs,protest and whatever in courts.
This discussion started after Lance Justice stated he would quit the game if found guilty, this is based on his statement that Smoken Up has never ever been treated with DMSO, so how can he let it go..........it's his right to fight. He has been branded a drug cheat and various remarks verging on slander over all of this which in my view we all quick to do without knowing all the facts. We have not been informed of all the evidence given in the case only the selected Committee references to evidence which is obviously slanted to protect their final decision. Given Smoken Up's outstanding performances over his total career as highlighted previous here I for one am prepared to believe Lance here, the horse doesn't need help to win these races, he's a freak of nature. He has performed at this level with security guards race after race and no swabbing problems. Maybe NZ stuffed up somewhere but you expect Lance to cop it.
Nice work P Plater...
To Mick Tobias, if you were charged and fined and therefore deemed guilty of an offence but the clowns making that decision feel you DIDNT ACTUALLY DO IT!!! i am guessing you wouldnt be happy!
What about all the innocent trainers that have been nailed with elevated TCO levels, they will tell you they never used it as well.Getting back on topic he did say he would give the game away if found guilty or is that just bull.... to.
http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=93601
This was on this site back in october. So if teecee and A Bit Dusty are right this article must be wrong ? I don't know for sure but from what I have read on this site SU was disqualified in october and the penalty for the trainer was handed out last Friday. Both articles cannot be %100 correct.
Anyway back to the thread, if Lance is found guilty at the end of the legal procces (which could take years) I would expect him to stick to his word .
Don't die wondering !
Further to knowing what evidence was presented at the Hearing, I think the article written by Mark Geenty a reporter who attended the hearing is interesting reading for those who have not seen it http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/...s-drug-testing.
let me ask this again...
To Mick Tobias, if you were charged and fined and therefore deemed guilty of an offence but the clowns making that decision feel you DIDNT ACTUALLY DO IT!!! i am guessing you wouldnt be happy!
How would you feel Mick?
Let's clear up the confusion for you...
The article you refer to was written by a journalist who IMO struggles for factual content when looking for a scoop.
When reading articles which are at odds with the official published version make sure you have a large bag of salt handy.
Articles from STUFF treat similarly.
If you really want the true story of any story they are usually published somewhere. In this case www.jca.org.nz and www.hrnz.co.nz
To help ease your confusion below is what was said Oct 31 2011 by the hearing panel.....
7. Result:
7.1 For those reasons we are satisfied the charge brought against Mr Justice under R.1004 (2) has been proved and "Smoken Up" was connected with a breach of R.1004 (1) and (2) when it ran in and won the Pacers Grand Final at the Inter Dominion Championships on 8 April 2011, for the purposes of R.1004 (8).
7.2 We think it appropriate to make it clear the finding the charge brought against Mr Justice has been proved does not carry with it any finding he personally was responsible for "Smoken Up's" elevated DMSO level when it was presented to race in the Pacers Grand Final on the evening of 8 April 2011. In opening the Informant's case on 23 August 2011 Mr Lange expressly conceded there was no evidence Mr Justice was "complicit",as he put it, in the sense he personally, or any person with his knowledge, was responsible for the horse's elevated DMSO level and there has been no evidence put before us which suggests otherwise.
7.3 We now require submissions from Counsel as to penalty and costs which will include the costs of the Judicial Control Authority which Mr Lange will have responsibility for. To that end the following timetable is to apply:
(i) Mr Lange is to file and serve on Ms Thomas his submissions on penalty and costs within one week of the date of this Decision;
(ii) Ms Thomas will have a further week from the date of receipt of Mr Lange's submissions to file her submissions in reply;
(iii) Leave is reserved to apply if for any valid reason there is difficulty with that timetable.
DATED at Wellington this 31st day of October 2011
_________________________
Bruce Squire QC (Chairman)
_________________________
Professor Geoffrey Hall
I cant see anything there about Smoken Up being disqualified.
Can you.
I do wear specs so I may have missed it but having read it so many times I doubt it.
ou will find the determinant statement re Smoken Up's position in the race on the front page link at www.hrnz.co.nz
That statement was released 16 December 2011.
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