Harness racing shame

[Old Frank]

Peteboss and Old Frank... "firstly i am a Victorian and dont claim to b an expert on NSW Trots..."
I hear ya...
My point being he primarily concentrates on Menangle as his mainstay, after all that's why he moved from Qld...No Menangle no Luke...

Hey Maori's,

Mate, wasn't having a dig, just expanding ABD's initial response to you. Yes I did see your Victorian 'status' but again, didn't mean any shot at you.

My comments were similiar to yours actually, yes Menangle seems to be Luke's focus as that's where the top money is, but he's dominating wherever he goes, placing his horses to advantage, small or big tracks.

Cheers.

[Old Frank]

Nathan as I have said countless times I am actually a fan of Lukes

This all started when I made a comment that I had never seen such dramatic improvements on this scale, the likes of Mandy Rambo no wins last 10 strs at places like Young, Wagga, Canberra etc and then wins eight out of 13 all at menangle in sensational fashion, Artifactor no wins last 17strs for B Hancock then wins 1st start for Luke .Roman Stride had not won in it's last 7 strs for N Day but wins 6 out of 8 including a 2nd for Luke.

My mistake was saying "if he is achieving these results on training alone then he is the best trainer we have ever seen" and it has Snowballed to were it is now .

I certainly did not accuse Luke of using Drugs, ( and clearly stated that in an earlier post) I now see that some people may have seen it that way,, but as I started to get attacked for MY opinion I started to get my back up.

The more people gave me, the more I felt I had to respond as my response to the( jealous bigot comment,)was " I remember supporters of those disgraced sportsman saying the same"
As with anyone who is passionate about something I probably go over board sometimes when trying to make a point , ( something that I will try to curb).

So for the second time I'll Retire from this subject and hope that Luke goes on to greatness.

Respect your comments about improving 'performed' horses, but to be frank (pardon the pun), I don't think it's too big an improvement overall.

Artificator, one (1) win under McCarthy when transferred from B.Hancock, yet was only in 2.00.1 for 2300m on a Tuesday, then some consistent performances, then one (1) more win under M.Rue in 1.57.5 before being shipped off to J.McCarthy in Brisbane where it's won 3-4 from about 15 starts in what's to be fair, more appropriate company. It's fair to say on face value, Luke probably doesn't think it will do a job like he wants in Sydney.

Roman Stride was always shown to be a good horse and won quite a few races for N.Day and McCarthy's probably got the horse at the right time but to be frank (there it goes again!) not 'improving' it per say to another level, but consistently holding it's form to it's ability. No different when N.Day took Camlach from D.Wilson some years back and won a stack of good races with him. D.Wilson, great trainer in his own right got a suspension, Day took over and won some very good races, including a Truer, so good trainers do get results from other good trainers horses, a lot of it can just be timing.

Mandy Rambo, yes see your point on face value, but seriously, you can't tell me honestly that (with no disrespect intended), that L.McCarthy isn't a better trainer/driver than M.Day who was punching her around the Goulburn/Canberra type races. Again, just keeping in perspective, it's chalk and cheese. Also, being a mare, they can hit a 'purple patch' as you would know. I do remember a good mare called 'Borowan' going to D.Wilson's barn from A.Taiba's some 10-12 yrs back and she was 7 or 8yrs old off memory at the time, yet she struck a good patch of form and Wilson won about 7-8 races from 10 starts with her before she got a bad leg injury and I remember Denis saying "she was as good a mare that I've put a bridle on and passed through my barn and she was tough". Mare's hold form solid, but can then go right off quick smart also, time will tell.

Mandy's little purple patch may well burst soon, I don't know? What I do know is, there is some logic to these horses winning consistently, but also, if Luke was improving at such astronomical rates all the horses he's getting, how come he's not winning every single race he enters?

[Old Frank]

Anyone is free to make an opinion however you can't make facts. Just look at the raw facts and you will see that his improvements are similar to that made using performance enhancing drugs.

Your saying "look at the raw facts", well fact is there's no positive swabs, no issues raised. That's the "raw fact" of this issue, everyone can comment till the cows come home, but as it stands, raw fact = no positive.

Read Thomas Tobins books on the percentage improvements that he gets using various drugs. A lot of trainers use drugs/treatments and some are legal. I don't know and I bet that none of you know whether LM's are legal or just not detectable.
Read some literature or review results of human/equine performances over time. It usually takes a long time to make big improvements. This is the point that Denny is trying to make. It's an old book, however see how long it took Tom Iver's to get improvements through interval training. This might put things into perspective for a few people.
The other thing is that LM makes big improvements on race fit horses which is hard to do.

Usually when a horse changes stable, it will go off it's feed and be unsettled for a few weeks.

Politely agree to disagree, have outlined some examples in another post answering to ABD's comments. Have seen good trainers take other good trainers horses and improve them. A long time ago now when I was around stables, saw plenty of horses come from other barns and thrive under different circumstances/working regimes.

So then, this is the hardest time to get the biggest improvements.

There is so much BS on this forum about LM having better day yards, tracks, yardsticks, swimming holes, blacksmiths, driving styles, selection of horses etc. Doesn't any other trainer have these things? They help but don't account for the scale of improvements that he makes in the time that he makes them.

LM is smart enough to drive his horses to their ability and doesn't drive the slower ones in the same way.

Doesn't the likes of Fitzpatrick, Day etc. know how to train horses anymore? They buy and train well bred horses and just aren't in the game at the moment against LM.
Some mention that LM gallops and swims them. Yeah, we'll I would too because it saves a whole lot of time versus gearing a horse up with hopples when you have so many horses in work. I'm not sure that it's just because it's a better way to work them.

Take a step back without emotion and look at the raw facts.

Refer my earlier comments above.

Speak to anyone involved in sport performance and discuss the results that this guy is getting. If they are without drugs then they defy alot of science and knowledge around sports training/performance.

Whether he's using drugs or not then it doesn't bother me. I just think that it's funny when we see such results and so many people think that it's impossible that he's using PED's. It's just as possible that he's using them as it is that he's not.

There is a rule in Harness racing requiring a log book of all treatments. Maybe a steward should sit posted for 3 weeks/24/7 to see if LM's log book is consistent with what he actually gives them. Then we won't need to bother to try and detect anything and could make a judgement on the use or non use of undetectable drugs.

Hey there Racefair, respect your opinions, my comments above following your highlighted points.

Cheers, Old Frank.

[racefair]

Hi Nathan, thanks for your reply and I respect your comments also. A few notes.
1. No positive swab doesn't 100% guarantee that no illegal drugs/treaments are being used. See also Lou Pena in the US who was suspended from racing without a positive swab. His results were off the charts and the harness racing community there had a gutful. There are some drugs that are not yet detectable. E.g. ITPP.
Sam Nati previously highlighted the testing of EPO and Snake Venom. I'm not as up to date as others, however I haven't seen anyone test positive for these drugs in NSW. This means either 1. Trainers have stopped using them or 2. HRNSW is not detecting them yet. Trainers today are getting caught with a variety of drugs and have shown that they will run the gauntlet. And so one might doubt whether they've stopped using these things.
2. Changing stables. Yes it can go both ways, however I only see a 1way improvement when LM gets them.
3. You ask why LM doesn't win every single race? Well he goes pretty close and someone has previously suggested that his strike rate is 50% when you take into account that he often has 2 and 3 runners in a race.Therefore, it's impossible for all of his horses to win every race as he has multiple runners.

[racefair]

Slightly off topic Jett...but Tom Ivers? As far as equine related mythological beasts go...his Interval Training & Carbo Loading mantras, they were up at the top of the list along with Jack Walmsley's Cycle Breeding theory.

Hi Jamie, Tom Ivers was a just book that sprang to mind while quickly making that post. Your'e a smart guy who knows/reads alot. What is the biggest improvement recorded in scientific literature by any research scientists (without drugs) that you've read? It would be also interesting to see how long it took to get those improvements.

[HARNESSTRAGIC]

Respect your comments about improving 'performed' horses, but to be frank (pardon the pun), I don't think it's too big an improvement overall.

Artificator, one (1) win under McCarthy when transferred from B.Hancock, yet was only in 2.00.1 for 2300m on a Tuesday, then some consistent performances, then one (1) more win under M.Rue in 1.57.5 before being shipped off to J.McCarthy in Brisbane where it's won 3-4 from about 15 starts in what's to be fair, more appropriate company. It's fair to say on face value, Luke probably doesn't think it will do a job like he wants in Sydney.

Roman Stride was always shown to be a good horse and won quite a few races for N.Day and McCarthy's probably got the horse at the right time but to be frank (there it goes again!) not 'improving' it per say to another level, but consistently holding it's form to it's ability. No different when N.Day took Camlach from D.Wilson some years back and won a stack of good races with him. D.Wilson, great trainer in his own right got a suspension, Day took over and won some very good races, including a Truer, so good trainers do get results from other good trainers horses, a lot of it can just be timing.

Mandy Rambo, yes see your point on face value, but seriously, you can't tell me honestly that (with no disrespect intended), that L.McCarthy isn't a better trainer/driver than M.Day who was punching her around the Goulburn/Canberra type races. Again, just keeping in perspective, it's chalk and cheese. Also, being a mare, they can hit a 'purple patch' as you would know. I do remember a good mare called 'Borowan' going to D.Wilson's barn from A.Taiba's some 10-12 yrs back and she was 7 or 8yrs old off memory at the time, yet she struck a good patch of form and Wilson won about 7-8 races from 10 starts with her before she got a bad leg injury and I remember Denis saying "she was as good a mare that I've put a bridle on and passed through my barn and she was tough". Mare's hold form solid, but can then go right off quick smart also, time will tell.

Mandy's little purple patch may well burst soon, I don't know? What I do know is, there is some logic to these horses winning consistently, but also, if Luke was improving at such astronomical rates all the horses he's getting, how come he's not winning every single race he enters?

Mandy Rambo that's a name I remember.
The Ballintine's from up this way bred her, I remember her poking around the trials around here trying to qualify , took about 10 strs or so to win a race .
Must admit I sure got a shock when she was stringing that winning streak together in town.Got even bigger surprise when I noticed it was only about 18days from her last start for previous trainer and her 1st win for Young Mack.

[aussiebreno]

Hi Jamie, Tom Ivers was a just book that sprang to mind while quickly making that post. Your'e a smart guy who knows/reads alot. What is the biggest improvement recorded in scientific literature by any research scientists (without drugs) that you've read? It would be also interesting to see how long it took to get those improvements.

Racefair,
I'd imagine numbers would be different for beginners, intermediate and advanced athletes/horses.
I envisage you know what these figures are? If so, what are they and what was the training experience behind the science dummies?
Cheers

[HARNESSTRAGIC]

Racefair,
I'd imagine numbers would be different for beginners, intermediate and advanced athletes/horses.
I envisage you know what these figures are? If so, what are they and what was the training experience behind the science dummies?
Cheers

Good Day aussiebreno
I think the point that racefair was alluding to was that over 70yrs of harness racing or any other sport for that matter , to improve one's ability with physical training has always taken quiet some time( months not day;s ), for you to post that sort of remark ,probably shows a little bit of ignorance on your behalf.
Ron

[aussiebreno]

Good Day aussiebreno
I think the point that racefair was alluding to was that over 70yrs of harness racing or any other sport for that matter , to improve one's ability with physical training has always taken quiet some time( months not day;s ), for you to post that sort of remark ,probably shows a little bit of ignorance on your behalf.
Ron

Yes but I'm actually keen to know what the figures are for reasons outside of this forum/thread.

[Danno]

Racefair,
I'd imagine numbers would be different for beginners, intermediate and advanced athletes/horses.
I envisage you know what these figures are? If so, what are they and what was the training experience behind the science dummies?
Cheers

righto aussie echo, can you give us the figures? or are you just fazing for your little mate??