Harness racing shame

[racefair]

[VVV] Sorry Jett, you hit on a bit of a raw nerve there.
Many years ago Ivers was actually a member of the forerunner to the US Harnesslist, it was called Post Parade, and I was also member of that forum.
While being fortunate enough to have as it's members fellas such as Murray Brown, the late Kurt Greene, Ralph Succee etc. it also had a few real loonies in residence.
Valley Vic, a fella singularly obsessed with a beer by the name of Rolling Rock was one who springs to mind and for different reasons but not so far behind him was Tom Ivers.
Time & time again Tom would bang on about Interval Training & Carbo-loading...the latter being a theory that he had whereby he claimed that with the right type of diet & training a horseman could not just load but in fact 'overload' the cells of the body with carbohydrate energy & thus gain an edge over the competition.
This, he claimed, specifically when fed in conjunction with Interval Training, was just the bee's knees.
As fortune would have it he just so happened to also sell the mystical super carbohyrdate compounds with which you could 'overload' your horse and sail to victory. Of course it flew in the face of all known science to that point and like all such snake oil sales, it still does.
On the subject of improvements, do you mean specifically performance wise in racehorses...or just pretty much anything at all?
As far as Standardbreds are concerned, I think it's generally accepted that the speed explosion started with the siring deeds of Meadow Skipper but I don't believe it to be the case that the horse himself was the one and only factor at work. His emergence as a sire of raw speed coincided with adoption of AI, vast improvements in training methods, catch drivers, better feeding & vet care, improved racetrack and race bike design etc. That might be getting off the track a bit though.

Hi Jamie,
It seems that we have digressed a little with Tom Ivers. I did note that he was just a name that I quickly thought of that had information on the rate of improvement of a racehorse over time using a particular training methodology. Alot of training methods still incorporate Intervals which I don't think was invented by Tom Ivers. I don't remember timelines, however I do remember carbohydrate loading being popular among athletes. See this article by the Australian Institute of Sport which discusses a 2-3% improvement with Carbohydrate loading.
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrit...ydrate_loading
Horses are of course different; however it seems that Tom Ivers wasn’t the only person with the idea. See this article in 1985.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...program-energy
So then, as you have a good understanding of same, what is the biggest improvement in training that you know of in elite athletes/racehorses under controlled conditions and without drugs?

I’m not sure I understand your point in regards to the “speed explosion” and “raw speed”. My opinion is that raw speed helps more in sit and sprint type races such that you see on the smaller tracks. However racing over 1600 metres at places like Menangle is more of an Aerobic event and therefore more of an Endurance race. Take Min Min Lights for example. This horse didn’t have much raw speed, however was “transformed” into a horse that could maintain a high speed for an extended period when Ian Wilson started to train him.

[Danno]

Here is an article about the man that tripple 123 is ridiculing ,calling old mate , and dismissing he's life time work. http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2005/11...ence-guru.html

Note the author refers to Tom as a brilliant Man , Funny I don't recall too many (except a couple of his loyal subjects) describing tripple 123 in this way.

Ron, what you will learn about the workings of this forum, is that dribble ( sorry Triple) and supported by, but to a lesser extent his minions, form an opinion, bag anyone who dares to differ and then project their opinions as FACT.

It's a form of intimidation and they have it down pat.

The disappointing aspect, to me, is they ( dribble.echo etc.) are actually chasing away more potential long term members/posters and therefore stifleing an open forum.

About twenty years ago a bloke i was driving horses for adopted the Tom Ivers interval training method, and he was going to adopt the carb loading bit as well, however , I'd had experienced a few issues with horses tying up ( in particular mares) and convinced him to take it one step at a time cos I could see the possibilty of the two defeating one another.

Anyway, this bloke's horses improved dramatically, not overnight, but in a peroid of about 8 maybe ten weeks they were bigger and stronger, undeniably and it showed in their raceday performances.

Tom Ivers was no mug despite what the goons on this forum have to say, the dropkicks have never trained a horse, but they sure can throw aspersions on a lot of folks who can wth their well tuned tactics.

Cheers,

Dan

[racefair]

if Luke was improving at such astronomical rates all the horses he's getting, how come he's not winning every single race he enters?

Hi Nathan,
I don't mean to be a smart arse, however LM won every race that he entered today. These are metropolitan races and what are supposed to be the toughest in Australia. LM beat 32 other horses to the line today. That's a 100% strike rate if you take out his horses that placed in the same races and couldn't win unless they deadheated.

[triplev123]

Here is an article about the man that tripple 123 is ridiculing ,calling old mate , and dismissing he's life time work. http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2005/11...ence-guru.html

Note the author refers to Tom as a brilliant Man , Funny I don't recall too many (except a couple of his loyal subjects) describing tripple 123 in this way.

[VVV] Ha! I am sure that if I look hard enough for long enough I'll be able to locate a piece that swears Dr. Jim Cairns was the darling of Free Enterprise.
Ron, instead of sitting up the back, fiddling with the Bunsen Burner taps and carving your initials into the desk with a compass, you should have paid more attention in Biology & Chemistry...because that way you wouldn't get so easily hoodwinked by rubbish science.
The Carbon Tax crap that the current Federal Government has been going on with also relies on exploiting the exact same basic science knowledge vacuum that Ivers used to zero in on when seeking to sell his snake oil.

[HARNESSTRAGIC]

Hi Nathan,
I don't mean to be a smart arse, however LM won every race that he entered today. These are metropolitan races and what are supposed to be the toughest in Australia. LM beat 32 other horses to the line today. That's a 100% strike rate if you take out his horses that placed in the same races and couldn't win unless they deadheated.

I remember reading on here a post from tripple 123 defending claims about LM were he made the statement that he recalled the same things being said about Fitzy and thorny in the past.

In all the time that Paul Fitzpatrick was on top I can never recall anyone doubt his results.
Every one knew that he was getting good stock they were getting well trained and driven, .
Yes they won lots of races ,but nothing out of the ordinary .if a fitzpatrick horse turned for home equal with another trainers horse because of it being improved by half a length or so (because it was trained by a professional) most of the time it would get up , not race away by a big margin and hard held the likes we are seeing today.
Now we come to the authors second trainer that he tried to slip in with a highly respected trainer as to try to indicate that he too was being wrongly accused of something sinister.
the trainer who only ever trained the odd winner, who rose to prominence when he was conveneintly stabled next to Menangle .( go back and have a look at his record away from Menangle)
What happened to this fellow when the stewards camped at his place for the day , for those with a bad memory his horses along with a interstate visiting mare that went like a lear jet the week before where not sighted, this same trainer has barely trained a winner since the introduction of the 2hr on course time requirement was introduced.
We'll have to see how he goes now that it has been changed back to one hour

The author of that thread seems to believe that every one else is a gullable as he is, well guess what tripple 123 were not .
Take the time to go to Menangle and talk to a few of the professional trainers (like I have ) and ask them their opinion of what is happening at the moment

[Mighty Atom]

Hello racefair,I'm with you.Ive seen it in person over many years:trainers not averse to gaining an advantage no matter what. Feeding,training facilities,training methods are only part of the equation all be it a big part. Being a pragmatist and what I have seen of performances of trainers and horses over the years I know it is not a level playing field. I see the results of certain trainers and the performances of certain horses and I cant help but relate to that philosophical quote of Edgar Allan Poe : " Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream?"

[Old Frank]

Hi Nathan,
I don't mean to be a smart arse, however LM won every race that he entered today. These are metropolitan races and what are supposed to be the toughest in Australia. LM beat 32 other horses to the line today. That's a 100% strike rate if you take out his horses that placed in the same races and couldn't win unless they deadheated.

Hey Racefair,

Your 100% right, Luke had an exceptional afternoon, but he didn't on Tuesday where he certainly didn't win every race he had runners.

My statement was a generalisation of his whole team, but yes, today was a great day for his team.

These are metro races and he had the team at the right grades, at the right time with the right nominating conditions to get them in to the maximum potential winning advantage.

His team looked good and I hope he continues on with his success. I know first hand from being in a stable environment in the past, a whole lot of factors come together to get a good team humming and realise it on the day and today was McCarthy's day.

I seem to recall not too long ago the Fitzpatrick's getting 4 and 5 winners at HP and it seemed to be the regular thing. Now it's McCarthy's turn on top and he's making every post a winner.

[triplev123]

I remember reading on here a post from tripple 123 defending claims about LM were he made the statement that he recalled the same things being said about Fitzy and thorny in the past.

In all the time that Paul Fitzpatrick was on top I can never recall anyone doubt his results.
Every one knew that he was getting good stock they were getting well trained and driven, .
Yes they won lots of races ,but nothing out of the ordinary .if a fitzpatrick horse turned for home equal with another trainers horse because of it being trained by a professional most of the time it would get up , not race away by a big margin and hard held the likes we are seeing today.
Now we come to the authors second trainer that he tried to slip in with a highly respected trainer as to try to indicate that he too was being wrongly accused of something sinister.
the trainer who only ever trained the odd winner, who rose to prominence when he was conveneintly stabled next to Menangle .( go back and have a look at his record away from Menangle)
What happened to this fellow when the stewards camped at his place for the day , for those with a bad memory his horses along with a interstate visiting mare that went like a lear jet the week before where not sighted, this same trainer has barely trained a winner since the introduction of the 2hr on course time requirement was introduced.
We'll have to see how he goes now that it has been changed back to one hour

The author of that thread seems to believe that every one else is a gullable as he is, well guess what tripple were not .
Take the time to go to Menangle and talk to a few of the professional trainers (like I have ) and ask them their opinion of what is happening at the moment

[VVV] Nah, that was merely highlighting the fact that, whoever you may be...whatever your surname...whenever you're on top of your game you're always going to be the focus of the Trolls...these evil, bitter, green-eyed creatures who periodically emerge from under bridges, Hell bent on dragging you back down to their level again.
The Trolls most certainly lined up on Paul, they lined up on Thorny and now... surprise, surprise, they are lining up on Luke. Unfortunately, that's how it is apparently.
Starve to death in the gutter having never won a race & you're an all round great bloke. Win a race maybe once a year & everyone's very happy for you...but pick it up from there & slowly but surely the congrats stop coming. Win regularly and you're the biggest bastard to have ever drawn breath. Nothing more, nothing less than jealousy...the terribly wicked thing that it is.

[Danno]

[VVV] Ha! I am sure that if I look hard enough for long enough I'll be able to locate a piece that swears Dr. Jim Cairns was the darling of Free Enterprise.
Ron, instead of sitting up the back, fiddling with the Bunsen Burner taps and carving your initials into the desk with a compass, you should have paid more attention in Biology & Chemistry...because that way you wouldn't get so easily hoodwinked by rubbish science.
The Carbon Tax crap that the current Federal Government has been going on with also relies on exploiting the exact same basic science knowledge vacuum that Ivers used to zero in on when seeking to sell his snake oil.

Fair dinkum Jamie that is your dribble at it's absolute worst, mate, go to bed, maybe take tranquiliser, and wake up tommorrow a new?? man??

[triplev123]

Fair dinkum Jamie that is your dribble at it's absolute worst, mate, go to bed, maybe take tranquiliser, and wake up tommorrow a new?? man??

[VVV] Labor voter eh Dan?