Holy Shit

[broncobrad]

Danno you may have inadvertantlly given the cheats a new defence ploy by using somnabulism as an excuse. Old mate is sleeping deeply, dreaming up ways to beat his rivals and sleepwalks out to the stable, picks up the the needle, does the deed and wanders back to bed, totally oblivious of what he has done. Because the act is done at such a low level of consciousness, a defence could be mounted that there was no intent by a fully functional person. However, he may have trouble explaining how illicit substances came to be in the stable in the first place!!!

[aussiebreno]

Danno you may have inadvertantlly given the cheats a new defence ploy by using somnabulism as an excuse. Old mate is sleeping deeply, dreaming up ways to beat his rivals and sleepwalks out to the stable, picks up the the needle, does the deed and wanders back to bed, totally oblivious of what he has done. Because the act is done at such a low level of consciousness, a defence could be mounted that there was no intent by a fully functional person. However, he may have trouble explaining how illicit substances came to be in the stable in the first place!!!

Here's on for you. Something with a 48 hrs withholding period. Vet records indicate it was given 50hrs pre race. Horse gets a positive....

[broncobrad]

Here's on for you. Something with a 48 hrs withholding period. Vet records indicate it was given 50hrs pre race. Horse gets a positive....

Hey Brendan (You smashed Mango & VVV last night, Man Of Art was my only winner) Been short of time this week to follow closely, but my take is this. If under the current regime of acceptable thresholds, withholding periods etc that we currently recognise as the benchmark, if they are compromised the authority has no choice but to commence proceedings against offenders. There is no wrong or right here, it is mandatory.

Hiding behind or shifting the blame to vets doesn't wash here, the trainer still has a responsibility to present the animal substance free. Similarly with Raglan, as p plater was trying to make the case for environmental changes, the fact the arsenic was present over the prescribed limit was all that was needed to find Butt guilty (which I now note he has withdrawn his appeal - what does that tell you).

If, as VVV suggests, changes need to made as to the acceptance of the use of some therapeutic substances, so be it, I agree with that. But that is up to the authority to act upon separate to the current situation.

[Toohard]

On that big list of the 1718 cases that's in the original link posted, would be interesting to know how the horses performed on each date. The column headings have been blacked out but only one can't work out is the last one... contains an "X" sometimes. "X" for a winning performance?

[dizzy]

After reading what has happened one thing is glaringly obvious:

#1.All administrations occurred under veterinary advice
#2.Mr Pana Horses did not return apostive swab
#3.They have charged him with time violations in regard to administrations of medications.

The problem with this is that once you begin prosecuting people for having medications administered by veterinarians then people will work outside supervised medical administrations. i.e no records and more risk to the horse and other competitors.

A very slippery slope indeed.

#1 All administrations were obviously administerd by a vet, but is it the vets responsibility to know when each horse was next entered to race or Mr Pena's? I'd say the vet can't be expected to know Mr Pena's intentions but Mr Pena SHOULD know of the medications administered to his team.

#2 Why does only a positive swab indicate an offence?

#3 Are you only committing an offence by driving over the speed limit if you get caught?


Tangles you would be naive to think that people are not already admininistring substances outside of veterinary supervision, particularly in Australia where the law is different inregard to medical items and products. Yes you can argue that this may encourage it further but the problem is aready well in existence.

[dizzy]

Here's on for you. Something with a 48 hrs withholding period. Vet records indicate it was given 50hrs pre race. Horse gets a positive....

then Brendan you probably have a case to have the horse quarantined, the something readministered and the horse retested.

Withholding periods are not absolutes but are based on the excretion times of a sample group plus a buffer added which covers almost all situations. Individual horses will excrete substances at different rates and it is possible an individual horse will still produce a positive after the expiration of the recommended WHP. It is the reverse effectively of the side effects listed for human drugs, one person gets a headache whilst testing a new product and even if the rest do not it goes on the side effects list.

The current protocol of WHP and post race testing is becoming antiquated in that individual trainers can use experts to develop individual protocols for the administration of performance enhancing drugs then test the horse to determine individual excretion times to ensure that the horse will be negative by a post race test whilst having benefitted fron the drug protocol during training. This some would argue may meet the present criteria for "drug free racing".
The benefits of administering steroids to athletes/horses is during the training time leading up to competition/racing, by the time the competition/race occurs the drugs have left the system but the physiological benefits remain leading to an enhanced performance in the competition or race, hence in human sports the prevelance of out of competition testing for athletes who in many sports compete far less frequently then racehorses. Racing will need to do the same, and more, if we want a level playing field.

[2minuteman]

It would appear that all of the above is superfluous if the report in today's Sunday Telegraph is correct.
Ray Thomas reports that Lou Pena's defense is,
"I am the token brown boy who everyone and their mother wants to talk about.It's racism,dude."
How do you reckon that will play out?

[Tangles]

then Brendan you probably have a case to have the horse quarantined, the something readministered and the horse retested.

Withholding periods are not absolutes but are based on the excretion times of a sample group plus a buffer added which covers almost all situations. Individual horses will excrete substances at different rates and it is possible an individual horse will still produce a positive after the expiration of the recommended WHP. It is the reverse effectively of the side effects listed for human drugs, one person gets a headache whilst testing a new product and even if the rest do not it goes on the side effects list.

The current protocol of WHP and post race testing is becoming antiquated in that individual trainers can use experts to develop individual protocols for the administration of performance enhancing drugs then test the horse to determine individual excretion times to ensure that the horse will be negative by a post race test whilst having benefitted fron the drug protocol during training. This some would argue may meet the present criteria for "drug free racing".
The benefits of administering steroids to athletes/horses is during the training time leading up to competition/racing, by the time the competition/race occurs the drugs have left the system but the physiological benefits remain leading to an enhanced performance in the competition or race, hence in human sports the prevelance of out of competition testing for athletes who in many sports compete far less frequently then racehorses. Racing will need to do the same, and more, if we want a level playing field.

Since there is non identifiable drug to detect on race day and the effect as you say is psychological perhaps they are all wasting there time and money and would be better off getting in a a psychiatrist for their team

[Danno]

MJ, closer attention to detail in the English language required.....does this sound familiar??

[Triple V]

Jamie I don't think its relevant what the drugs are, the rules are that they cant be administered within a defined time frame prior to racing and multiple records indicate systemic breach of the rules. Stomach tubing here with only water within 48 hours of a race is a breach of the rules but is never going to return a positive swab so does that make it ok?

[VVV] I disagree with the relevancy aspect. It is EXTREMELY relevant what the drugs being used are/were Dot. Some are of therapeutic use and have a reason or reasons to be present/used. Others are not and so they have absolutely no place being in play.
For example, it's one thing for a Trainer to score a Bute overage or to be found to have used it inside of time but it's another thing entirely to find...for example...a Human Dementia drug being used...which was in fact the case a year to two back with another fella who's name escapes me. Go through the list of the drugs his Vet used. As I said, some are pedestrian, some are exotic.