Can Drug Testing alone catch or stop DRUG cheats? - Richard Freedman on TripleM Radio

[Danno]

[VVV] Yeh? At the risk of having to go & look around in the kitchen for a sealed container & in the garage for a nutting knife...that's contrary to my understanding of it all Dot.
If the testosterone threshold for entires is X...then what is it for/does it say about geldings & for that matter fillies & mares? If that's the case then by virtue of fillies and mares also naturally producing some testosterone of their own, they would have to be assigned a higher threshold than then geldings, would they not?
That doesn't make any sense.

Ha ha Ha Jamie looks like Dot's got you by the short and curlies, it is fact Jamie that the boldenone threshold applies to entires ONLY as it is a naturally occurring substance in entires only.
I reckon Mark or Lee or Jett get the job but........

[Triple V]

dan

i will stand corrected but this is this misunderstanding throughout this thread steroids are not banned, all this rubbish about out of competition testing finding substances and cheats is just not right.
[vvv] as i understand it, that is the case vor. They are not banned, not only are they not banned, they have long been and continue to be widely available and widely used for a variety of purposes.

of all the swabs i can recall in the the last 4 years in nsw and there have been plenty i would say about 100 only 2 would have caused a problem with out of comp testing the epo and roy roots jrn one.
[vvv] yes.

steroids are sweet to use under vet advice and plenty do and from the sates leading vets and if you and mark do not like it tuff.
[vvv] testify brother bill. Where have you been all day?

i do not think it will ever change the vast majority of those positive swabs were tco2....... Bi carb because its cheap and effective ..
[vvv] there is a box of arm & hammer in our kitchen cupboard.


out of competition test every horse in the state every week if you want will not get rid of bicarb or steroids because neither is banned out of competition and i doubt ever will be.
[vvv] agree.

so called drug free racing is a myth because we need therapeutic drugs to keep horses racing.
[vvv] incidentally, you forgot to blow 'charge' on the bugel before you rode over the crest of the hill.

example in nearly every jurisdiction in the world treatment for ulcers is allowed because so many horses suffer from them...eiph (bleeding) is a far more common up to 95% in some studies and a bigger problem a drug treatment for this will eventually be permitted (no vvv not lasix well i hope not too tricky) but nevertheless a treatment.
[vvv] eiph is without doubt the single biggest animal welfar issue both equine codes face and yet it is the sleeper of the century. Nobody pays it any attention.

by all means get rid of the cheats but please understand drugs and treatment of racing horses with them is needed to keep the industry alive.
[vvv] can i get a witness! Testify once again brother bill.

every positive swab is not someone deliberately cheating
[vvv] a feeling of overwhelming joy fills my heart. This is just too good to be true. Am i in an episode of the twlight zone? Where are rod serling & vic morrow?

vvv

[Triple V]

Ha ha Ha Jamie looks like Dot's got you by the short and curlies, it is fact Jamie that the boldenone threshold applies to entires ONLY as it is a naturally occurring substance in entires only.
I reckon Mark or Lee or Jett get the job but........

[VVV] That may well be the case Dan...I am not relishing the idea of the nutting knife...I might instead go with a ring... however I'd like to know exactly what the rules state...as it what level is applicable to each group.
I am pretty sure geldings would still have some sort of a natural level...and they do not end up totally sans testosterone for the rest of their lives as a result of being two stones light. I always thought that Gelding merely serves to considerably drop testosterone levels..and that fillies & mares also have some natural level of testosterone. I've certainly been under that impression since the rules were changed some time ago now.

[Triple V]

I'll call you on that bet VVV. I'll take your "Jatz crackers" delivered in a seeled, never to be opened container duly delivered by yourself to Bankstown. I nominate Mark, Lee, Dan or Jett to supervise their removal and installation into said container.

Do pray tell how geldings can be treated with Boldonone with impunity from testing when the threshold level in geldings is ZERO? Yes VVV thats right the threshold level for geldings for Boldonone is ZERO. Boldonone is a prohibited substance in geldings because as you point out they are sans the "tackle" that creates it naturally. The threshold quoted in the rules is for male horses other then geldings.

[VVV] Hey Dot, you're wrong. Geldings must indeed have a threshold also as geldings do indeed continue to produce Testosterone...old mate the adrenal gland sees to that. Jatz remain safe. Sealed container back in the kitchen. Nutting knife is back in the tool box.

[Lethal]

United States Racing
ANABOLIC STEROID RULE (THOROUGHBRED)
810 KAR 1:018 Medication; testing procedures; prohibited practices.
Section 9.
1)The presence of exogenous anabolic steroids ("AAS") is banned in a horse THAT IS RACING.The detection xxxxxxxxxxxxxx after the horse has been entered shall constitute a violation.

2) The detection xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. For the purposes of this rule, the following are deemed to be the naturally occurring physiological levels.

)a) Boldenone in male horses other than geldings;-15ng/ml in urine.NO Boldenone SHALL BE PERMITTED IN GELDINGS OR FEMALE HORSES.

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/r...orse_id=546015

A gelding who started in a fillies races a 2 and 3yo!!!

[Triple V]

That's interesting but that doesn't help me much Lee as it is apparently an extraction from a US TB rule book.
I want to know what our rule says here for Australian Harness Racing so I'll go have look & see if I can find it.
In the interim I asked a Vet mate of mine and he said that both geldings and female horses will always have some level of Testosterone in their blood. Geldings will have a steady one by way of it being secreted from their adrenal glands and fillies and mares have varying levels by way of peaks occuring both at point of oestrus & then again a couple of weeks prior to the next point of oestrus, both of which will apparently occur during their normal cycles. That being the case then a zero level of Testosterone allowed at any time for either geldings or fillies & mares seems to be at odds with nature?

Added bit following

BINGO!
Here are what appear to be the applicable rules.
Interestingly here Testosterone & Boldenone are dealt with seperately.
I've always thought they were largely one & the same thing, if not the same.
Anyone care to decipher this?

From the HRA wesbite...

(d) In male horses, other than geldings, 5a-estrane-3b, 17a-diol in urine (including both the free substance and that liberated from conjugates) at a concentration equal to or less than that of 5(10)-estrene-3b, 17a-diol in urine (including both the free substance and that liberated from its conjugates).

(g) Testosterone (including both free testosterone and testosterone liberated from its conjugates):
(i) in geldings: at a concentration of 20 micrograms per litre in urine.
(ii) in fillies and mares: at a concentration of 55 micrograms per litre in urine.
(iii) in fillies and mares that have been notified as pregnant so as to comply with Rule 103B at any concentration.

(i) Boldenone in male horses other than geldings, (including both free boldenone and boldenone liberated from its conjugates) at a mass concentration of 15 micrograms per litre in urine.

[Triple V]

http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/r...orse_id=546015

A gelding who started in a fillies races a 2 and 3yo!!!

[VVV] A few years back there were a couple of 'mares' in Canada that raced fillies/mares for quite some time before a chromosome test found them to be XY's and they were forced to race the boys thereon. As rare as it is, interestingly they were also quite closely related, I think they were cousins or something like that.

[dizzy]

Testosterone and Boldonone are not the same in the rules VVV, it is as simple as that. I'll have to check with the medical people I know but I don't believe this is one of those "blood is not part of the cardio vascular system" anomalies perculiar to racing.


I'm sure a pair of rusty tinsnips would do the job, I have a pair if you cant find any, anytime in the morning at Bankstown for delivery would be acceptable to me.

And Bill anobolic steroids can be used under vet advice, but doesn't the fact that no vet has stepped forward to take responsibility for prescribing Boldonone to Mach Wiper and Karloo Kix strike you then as "odd"?

[aussiebreno]

Dizzy, if you do prematurely cut VVVs manhood off make sure to check if he is still producing testosterone. You will find even though he is now gelded he would still produce testosterone, just like a gelded horse.