http://www.harnessracing.co.nz/#!csb...ock-sale/c1f0t
Anything take your fancy?
ps It is a strange spreadsheet, among other tricks - scrolling on left hand side of the table tends to misalign with the right hand side
Printable View
http://www.harnessracing.co.nz/#!csb...ock-sale/c1f0t
Anything take your fancy?
ps It is a strange spreadsheet, among other tricks - scrolling on left hand side of the table tends to misalign with the right hand side
I liked Glenferrie Slipper who is by Quite Easy out of Chiola's Lass but after looking further into her breeding and who she is in foal to I changed my mind.
The sire Quite Easy is by Andover Hall and Glenferrie Slipper is in foal to The Pres who is also by Andover hall.
Is the foals 3x2 Andover too close for your liking Dallas?
I thought Lot 2 Zenola Princess may be worth persisting with and in foal to Art Major is a big plus. ZP is a full sister to Tintin In America's dam.
I would breed her to Elsu and see what the near inbreeding might produce (Tintin In America would be real inbreeding)
Maybe Lot 57 Triple Sec (in foal to Betterthancheddar) and hope I could not afford to send her to Bettors Delight
They are both good NZ families
Zenola's Princess for sure Kev and Art Major is working real good with In The Pocket mares. I think The Smalls have tried Elsu with Zenterfold and been disappointed but Bettor's would be a terrific breeding with ZP if you could afford him or I would also consider Roll with Joe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Yeah, I see that now Rich but they only tried once - maybe a 2nd time with a full sister. A Bettors foal should be no slouch and also rated as an excellent match on Pedigree Partner.
Maybe when I win Powerball tonight ;)
I'll split it with you lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Hi KevQuote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
It is a little close for me but in saying that 3x2 has worked in the past. It is a super family and one that might be worth the punt.
http://www.harnesslink.com/New-Zeala...ettors-DelightQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard prior
Read right to the bottom and you will see why Richard is spot on again as the half sister of Zenola's Princess - Zenola Starbuck has produced a real good Bettor's in Zin Zan
I am selling Lot 1 in mixed section - Miss Patriot, be interested to see what your thoughts are on her breeding? Not going to yearling sales next year so trying this sale.
Thoughts
Dam is half sister to Cincinnati Kid √ but she is yet to produce a winner and in the family N67 the Kid has not got many star performers for company
I think the jury is still out on American Ideal and it would not hurt your prospects if Bling It On was to win on Sunday
I can see why you selected American Ideal as your mare's pedigree plays nicely to his dam side
I hope she is a good looking filly and you do very well at the sale Figgy
ps I am as big an amateur as you can get so take little heed of what I say
I think that's a pretty fair appraisal Kev.
Thanks guys, I appreciate your comments.
Fiona,
I can't agree with most of the comments above.
Anything that has Paulreta close up in its pedigree is worth serious consideration.
Paul Command and Hurricane Paul were two outstanding horses and are close up in her pedigree.
The fact that your filly is a 3/4 sister to The Orange Agent who looked so smart in the two year races at Auckland this year means your filly has a lot going for it.
It all comes down when buying horses to the individual.
But you can't fault the breeding of your filly that's for sure.
We all know that your thoughts as a pro should hold a lot more weight than mine as an enthusiast but lets think of our opinions as being from the perspective of a buyer (me) and a seller (you)Quote:
Originally Posted by Viv Strangman
You cannot agree with most of the comments - I think I made five comments
1 The dam being a half sister to Cincinnati Kid is a plus
2 The dam is yet to produce a winner
3 Family N67 does not have many star performers
4 The jury is still out on American Ideal
5 I liked the line breeding in her filly's pedigree
Which of these comments do you not agree with?
As you said it very much comes down to the individual. I think I am far more conservative with my 'outstandings' than you.
Maybe I am too particular but after bringing up the descendants of Paulreta (1969) and comparing them to the descendants of Ladyeen (1971) the A1 family in which I had a nice broodmare and winning full sister to one of the black type - well I would be no more enthusiastic about her well bred progeny.
I am very glad Fiona got more than my perspective. Overall I would summarize it like so - I would be happy to have bred Miss Patriot for myself but I would not be too confident of a big return if I had bred her to sell
The Orange Agent is definitely a plus that I did not know about and probably something that a seller would have to bring to the attention of most Aussies.
It is great to get some constructive feedback so thank you. We are only small breeders and our biggest wish is that any horse we sell gets every opportunity. I would love to keep this filly but we do have a half sister by Live or Die to carry on with to race and maybe future breed. Honey Ryders first foal died at 6 months old so not sure what happened there as we didnt own the mare then, her second is a McArdle 4 year old which again we didnt breed but hasnt shown up. We did buy her in foal to Elsu which is the third foal, a colt which was a very nice type and we sold for a modest but fair price at the yearling sales, I think he is not far away from making an appearance at the workouts. We then have the Live or Die and then Miss Patriot. Our expectations are not huge on a return for her as long as she gets a chance to prove herself...... as has been proven some of the best horses were the cheapest buys and there are some $200,000 riding hacks out there. Hey we will just see what pans out on the 11th Sept......
Really Kev ,if you are going to comment on Nz families, you need to talk to someone who has some knowledge because you really are wide of the mark here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
I have been in the game a long time and have access to every book/reference book you could name but I still wouldn't feel qualified to speak on Australian maternal families with any degree of confidence. All the books/internet give you is an overview of families ,not an insight.
Experience gives you that
At the same time I have read so many comments on Nz families that are wide of the mark from the other side of the Tasman i have to wonder why you bother.
The maternal family in question here is known to Kiwis as Tot Huon (116B)
It has been the premium dual gaited family on this side of the Tasman.
A lot of our best horses come from from dual gaited families (Christian Cullen, Elsu) and for a family that you claim has few stars I would love to know how you would rate the following horses
Paula--- Paul Gentry---Game Paul---Paula Scott---Hurricane Paul---Paul Command and Paul's Byrd to name just a few for a start.
The last thing that ever concerns me when assessing an individual is what foal number they are.
You get hung up on foal number and you will miss some lovely individuals.
Kate Perry is just the last in a long line of ignoring what her siblings have done and running like her breeding suggests she should.
The fifth foal from her dam when purchased and nothing had raced but a quality individual in the flesh that impressed Cran Dalgety enough to buy her.
As for American Ideal, he has done a lovely job on this side of the Tasman which is reflected in the huge books he has served here in the last four years.
If you want to be taken seriously when talking about New Zealand, then you need to get out of your reference books and talk to some people on the ground.
Here's a wee quiz for you.
What is the best bred mare in the up coming sale.
Not the best producer, just the best bred mare in the sale.
I am genuinely interested in your opinion so I would appreciate a reply.
Who will judge the best bred mare Viv as it is only an individual's opinion and the opinion's all vary ?
'Really' VivQuote:
Originally Posted by Viv Strangman
I bowed to your experience but fear you are venturing into a bit of 'chest puffing'
I never claimed to speak with a lot of confidence - read the finish of my post.
I don't know whether I want to be taken too seriously
I do however enjoy chatting on a forum with like minded people - if you see it as a place for chest puffing have yourself a good time
As far as answers go - I was waiting for the answer to how many of my 5 comments you disagree with but now I am not really interested
I will never argue about the wisdom of the man on the ground but with all those books you have got I hope you read them too as some of the men on the ground could write too
And here is a 'wee' thought for you - let's not kid ourselves that results, averages etc etc are all rubbish. Just because some people distort them does not mean they are not relevant
An old favourite book of mine (superseeded by ClassicFamilies nowadays) was Ian Daff's Black Book
He allocated Tot Huon number 145 as he did not see it as quite a leading family and I reckon that is still the case, only IMO of course.
Is there no catalogue for this sale ?
Trev,Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteblood
Go to the Standardbred Breeders New Zealand site and the catalogue is online.
It clicks through to HRNZ site for pedigree.
Great concept. They are charging $125 entry fee and no commission. No horses at the site on the day to keep travel costs down so you need to inspect pre sale.
Timing is excellent with breeding season just around the corner.
Exactly the point I was trying to make Greg. Everyone of us breeders has a liking for a particular maternal family and you can make a solid case why it is better than others in the stud book. What I have difficulty with is when people class a maternal family as average or poor when in fact the exact opposite is the case. There are a lot of small Nz maternal families that Australians don't rate which are highly regarded on this side of the Tasman. I wouldn't comment on Australian maternal families because I only have a superficial knowledge of them. Would love some discussion on some of the mares in the up coming sale as it has drawn some mares that money wouldn't brought 20 years ago yet here they are today for sale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Hando
Kev,Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
If you are going to discuss breeding on this side of the Tasman either learn what you are discussing or expect some flack.
You bagged a family as average with few star performers when the family has numerous group one performers and is highly regarded in New Zealand and has been as long as I have been in the game.
It is hard enough for breeders like Fiona to make a go of it at sales here without ill informed comments about the maternal family she is breeding from being accepted as fact.
I am delighted that I have created such a vibrant discussion on our mares family and I appreciate all comments. We are having a year off breeding this season to give our mares progeny time to show us something! We also own Jessem's band but from the time she was in foal to Red River and have sent her to stallions that will hopefully give her the opportunity, her filly Godspeed (American Ideal) is due to step out at workouts very soon and her colt Guilty Pleasure ( Real Desire) is showing a lot of promise. (We sold both these as yearlings and have been told by the owner) who has just purchased the Sportswriter colt from us. Exclusive Franco is our other mare who is taking a while to produce something but her 2nd foal In Sin City (who is racing in oz) has just won 2 in a row, not a superstar but doing ok. We have a 3 year old filly from her by Gotta Go Cullect who is due to trials soon, wanted to get the Cullen and Live or Die mix with her and looks like might go well. The mare has a double up of the Old Maid which I understand is good. So for us what started off as being in a syndicate leasing a racehorse in 2005 has really escalated into 3 mares, 2 foals to come, a yearling, 2 year old, 3 & 4 year old!!
Like I said earlier, I am looking at the catalogue from the perspective of a buyer whereas you clearly fit into the seller categoryQuote:
Originally Posted by Viv Strangman
Fiona asked for opinions and no one had given her a reply, aware that she was new to the board I thought I would give it a crack. I will only ever give what is my honest opinion
Like it or lump it but don't come onto a forum and start 'lording' it over others - get over yourself Viv
If you only want NZers to discuss NZ breeding stick to the NZ board. That won't happen because no one posts on the NZ board!
As far as bagging Fiona's filly, I made 2 positive, 1 negative, 1 fact, 1 undecided comment
I could not have qualified or downplayed my opinions much more than I did but twice now you have felt the need to come on all high and mighty
We all know how hard it is for breeders and I admire them for keeping our game going but it is highly competitive and it is not ill informed to state that family N67 has had 6 Gp1 winners - 2014, 2010, 1992, 1974, 1971, 1921. The class of those winners is what keeps it going.
Like you said - it all comes down to the individual
So how about you stop trying to silence this individual from voicing his opinion. We all expect people to disagree with us on a regular basis but forget this combative crap for I do not expect to receive 'flack' on a forum
Read my sig
Now I am going to go back to being calm and happy Kev :)
It sounds exciting Fiona. We will all be following you now. I am barracking for American Ideal (I am wacky and get excited by things like U7xU7) and I am sure Richard will be very interested in your Gotta Go Cullect. Everybody will be interested in the Sportswriter. Cheers KevQuote:
Originally Posted by figgy1
Viv,Quote:
Originally Posted by Viv Strangman
I think not having a catalogue page is very much part of the problem. Prospective buyers are left with a lot of work to do to "build" the pedigree page flicking from dam to 2nd dam to 3rd dam, and production records of daughters and grandaughters, etc. I think most will make a quick assessment because there is just too much work involved.
Certainly, too much effort involved for me to offer an opinion on the merits of Fiona's filly or more specifically to offer an answer to your question re who is the best bred mare in the sale. It is certainly a cheap way of putting a sale together but if I was a vendor I would be concerned that the pedigree is not out there for all to easily see. If the maternal family of Fiona's filly is as respected as you suggest then it is evidence of the problem that people involved in this discussion are not recognising it. Not a problem with the people as you tend to be inferring but a problem with the marketing.
All will be revealed on sale day and the merits or shortcomings of this sale concept will be judged. As will the respect for the maternal family belonging to Fiona's filly.
Totally agree with you Trevor. I clicked on the site and expected to see an on line catalogue. The fact that they don't have one will deter some prospective buyers from researching the pedigrees further. ( including me ) . I recognise that this is the first Sale under this new concept but if they are going to rely on the internet for marketing it needs to be improved and to provide the buyer with information at your finger tips.
If you post such misleading rubbish as you have on this matter, then I will pull you up every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
If you are going to give your opinion try to make it an informed one.
As i have said a couple of times I wouldn't comment on a thread about Australian breeding because I only have a superficial knowledge of the maternal families involved.
I suggest you take the same approach to threads about New Zealand breeding
Hi Trev,Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteblood
It is the first attempt by the the Standardbred Breeders Association and the whole aim has been to minimise the cost to the vendor.
I can understand the difficulties you have with the format as it is not user friendly.
Most Kiwis breeders know the families and the pedigrees off by heart but I can understand how Australians would find it confusing and time consuming.
In New Zealand these sales are fire sales most of the time and when you take out all the fees and commission, the vendor can end up losing money.
So why the amount paid may not be any bigger, it is hoped to return most of it to the vendor.
I am not sure if this will work or not but kudos for them at least trying to help the average breeder
It did surprise me a touch as one of the main people behind the concept is Noel Kennard who would be one of the most computer literate people you could ever meet. I am sure they will take all the comments about the sale on board as they seem to want to make it an annual event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie
You sound upset VivQuote:
Originally Posted by Viv Strangman
I notice you have still not once addressed anything I have posted but don't now as we can beg to differ
Misleading rubbish - which points were wrong again LOL
I will give you an example of misleading rubbish
"Here's a wee quiz for you.
What is the best bred mare in the up coming sale.
Not the best producer, just the best bred mare in the sale.
I am genuinely interested in your opinion so I would appreciate a reply"
When Greg called you out about this stunt/question of yours
Who will judge the best bred mare Viv as it is only an individual's opinion and the opinion's all vary ?
You tried to claim
Exactly the point I was trying to make Greg....
If you were only trying to make that point you would have just said that instead of asking such a detailed question - at best I will say you were trying to set me up
You will have to earn my trust from here on in Viv
Like I have already said, I could not have qualified my opinions anymore ie I am only an amateur/enthusiast and Fiona to whom I was replying did not seem to have your problem
And guess what I will comment on anything I feel inclined to and I am sure TeeCee will let me know if I am out of line so don't you worry your pretty little head about it :D
If Noël Kennard has the computer skills it is disappointing that he did not create an on line catalogue. Traditionally, mare dispersal sales do not generate high prices. If he was looking for a cheaper option than printing and distributing catalogues , the internet gets the message across worldwide. Maybe next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viv Strangman
Anne,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie
Noel runs his own harness racing site in New Zealand and has done so for years.He is the owner of Monkey Bones and The Prez and runs the Go Harness Racing Syndicates so he is very computer literate
Results
http://media.wix.com/ugd/c3fe71_96e3...b7b2a7bfe7.pdf
Maybe it will catch on next year
20 of 90 lots sold
Zenola's Princess went for $10k which was more than 25% of the whole sale's turnover
Not sure how anyone can say 'jury is still out' on American Ideal as sire...look at these facts, and then go read his foal numbers and compare with other sires .....
American Ideal, in 2013/2014 became the sire of THE BEST 3 YR COLT IN AUST (Bling It On), THE SECOND BEST 3 YR FILLY IN NZ (Ideal Belle), AND THE TOP 2YR OLD IN USA-Canada IN 2013 AND NOW IN 2014 AT 3 HE BEING THE MEADOWLANDS PACE WINNER IN WORLD RECORD (HE'S WATCHING-1.46.4).
In Sept 2014 the winner (Sunfirebluechip) of the $200,000 4 yr Canadian classic Prix de Tete. Right now he is probably the best 4 yr old male pacer in Nth America and is also by American Ideal.
In addition 2 of the older FFA male pacers in 2014 in USA are by same sire AI; being Heston Blue Chip (prior 3 yr old of his year in Nth America and winner of over $1.75 million) and Big Town Hero (this latter AI pacer who earlier won this year in 1.47.3 - on five fur track- in Sept 2014 won the top class $200,000 FFA pace as 6 yr old, winning the Jim Ewart Memorial in 1.48.2 - equaling the track record- where he defeated Sweet Lou and Foiled Again etc).
I ask where are all the hundreds of Art Major foals now racing in FFA ranks anywhere in world. My guess is by end of age 4 most Art Major's have bowed one of their front tendons (like sire Artsplace did as racehorse) and are retired or racing with much medical support. I would be interested in feedback of anyone else with an Art Major tendon bow experience.
David,you're probably right and I could have said the jury is very nearly satisfied (I was of course referring to his Southern Hemi credentials)
For those who are interested in comparing American Ideal to Art Major, like David, here is a smorgasbord for you
http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Offspr...arnings&AD=ASC
http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Offspr...arnings&AD=ASC
http://stars.ustrotting.com/stallion.cfm?stallion_id=55
http://stars.ustrotting.com/stallion...tallion_id=169
http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/r...orse_id=561051
http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/r...orse_id=518040
http://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gas/wa/r/i...&Arg=SireStats
http://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gas/wa/r/i...&Arg=SireStats
EDIT
The HRA links only give the home page you will have to look them up yourself and then click on 'Progeny of this Sire' tab
I will try attaching snips but it is likely to be blurry
Fiona you might be very happy after last night if you have kept MP, maybe as a future broodmare she can surpass her mumQuote:
Originally Posted by figgy1
Hi Kevin, We did sell her to a good trainer and am wishing them all the success for the future with her......lets hope she is half as good as her 3/4 blood relation The Orange Agent!! I am sure there are a few people out there kicking themselves for maybe not taking a punt on buying her but time will tell I guess...... we do have a lovely Betterthancheddar colt from the same mare who will be for sale if anyone is interested?? We also have a beaut 2 year old Live or Die filly who we are a bit excited about from the same mare, we are keeping her and she is out in the paddock until about August, she went to a workout and jogged around 3 seconds under qualifiying.....so keep an eye out for "Sweet Life"..